"Pre" Models

[steelslaver]

I find it hilarious that most of the purist who would never utter "pre model" regular use the term triple lock when referring to the New Century.

News flash, the actual purpose of language is to convey a thought from one to others. The rules and words used gave been under constant change and addition since the very first grunts. Thing like rules didn't even exist for the first 200,000+ years since man started actually talking. Spelling rules (1568 by Sir Thomas Smith to the creation of the creation of the Simplified Spelling Board in 1906. sentence structure, or correct grammar (1586 by William Bulloka)

In fact about 1000 words are added to the English vocabulary every single year. I have no doubt the number of phrases like "pre model" is as high or higher.

No one anywhere has appointed me as keeper of proper language. If fact the keepers of language are actually more trackers of it evolving. Ask anyone with a masters in English, they can often be found working as librarians or HS teachers.

The best speakers gauge their speech to their audience in order to best convey their thoughts

When speaking to a person who is mostly familiar with model number the pre model phase can be helpful to get them on the correct group of guns.

When speaking to a lot of collectors, using the term appears to be very effective in rising their blood pressure and receiving a lecture by someone who does not understand that language and even terminology evolves.

Evolution, some people do it, others don't.

 

[fiasconva]

Forgive my ignorance but the more I read the more confused I get. Glowe, since I have no access to a period catalog what is the proper name for what I've been calling a Pre-Victory 38 spec. with the DOB of 1941?

 

[Jim Watson]

Commercial or military contract?

 

[DWalt]

Forgive my ignorance but the more I read the more confused I get. Glowe, since I have no access to a period catalog what is the proper name for what I've been calling a Pre-Victory 38 spec. with the DOB of 1941?

If it is chambered for .38 S&W, you could call it a BSR. Otherwise, it would be an M&P. "Victory" was never an official model name. But calling it a pre-Victory would be understandable to most. And not all M&Ps made in 1941 went to the military. And neither did all "Victories."

 

[fiasconva]

This one doesn't have the V in the serial number. It was purchased by my late brother years ago and he thought it had come from a former police officer but has no other markings other than the factory ones. Thanks for the info.

 

[DWalt]

Without a V prefix to the SN and no topstrap property stamps, and chambered in .38 Special, it is very likely to have been a civilian commercial M&P. The only way to know for sure what you have would be to get it lettered.

 

[DARE]

never heard anyone refer to my pre39 as a "model 9mm Automatic pistol"...

If they did, I'd have to tell them: No, it's only a semi-automatic.

44wheelman, you might want to take a look at this image.

 

[TheHobbyist]

OP, your reasoning is correct.

Speaking for myself on the other commentary, I'll refer to 'pre-model' when talking to other collectors and they typically do the same--just easier, but I suppose a critic could say it's lazy.

 

[flundertaker]

Nonmenclature....

I think the OPs question was answered ad infinitum, lots of interesting explanations and opinions,
I chuckled a bit being that flundertaker has been here since 2013 and almost wondered if he wanted to stir the pot a tiny bit lol.

I can see your reasoning for thinking so based on the way this thread has (de)evolved. However, i assure you that wasnt my intent. I didnt even own a pre-model anything up until about 2 months ago and had spend most of my time on this forum in the 1961-80 subforum. Also my question was answered in the first reply. I simply wanted to know which models bridged the point in time from pre model numbered to model numbered. I suppose I could have gone the the bible and looked at every one and noted which it applied to but that would be very time consuming and I figured (correctly) that someone here could rattle off the list faster than I could find the good book and get started.
Like many of the threads on this forum, I have learned far more than my original question. It seems most dont sweat the nomenclature much but can in the right circles switch back and forth to technically correct names. Ill try to do so as well based on what I have learned.

 

[HeloMt]

Funny, I never hear any beef about the term "transitional", even though I don't believe any factory literature mentions it. By the way, if you want know the difference between a "Transitional" 357 magnum and a pre-27, I can help with that. Be sure and bring your checkbook...

 

[steelslaver]

Did the factory ever call the original 357 magnums "registered magnums"?

Did they ever called any that followed "non registered magnums".?

Did the factory ever officially call any of the V numbered ones as "Victories", K200 or British 38/200?

How about 5 screw, 4 screw, pinned, recessed, pre war or post war??

Why are some made up designations and descriptors OK and some not??

Pre-a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, where it meant “before” ( preclude; prevent ); applied freely as a prefix, with the meanings “prior to,” “in advance of,” “early,” “beforehand,” “before,” “in front of,” and with other figurative meanings ( preschool; prewar; prepay; preoral; prefrontal ).

AS IN Prior to model number xx

 

[Frailer]

Did the factory ever officially call any of the V numbered ones as "Victories", K200 or British 38/200?

S&W did use ‘“Victory” Model’ extensively in contemporary advertisements.

But your point is well-made, regardless.

 

[Retired W4]

Rhetorical, of course, but all good points.

 

[BC38]

Did the factory ever call the original 357 magnums "registered magnums"?

Did they ever called any that followed "non registered magnums".?

Did the factory ever officially call any of the V numbered ones as "Victories", K200 or British 38/200?

How about 5 screw, 4 screw, pinned, recessed, pre war or post war??

Why are some made up designations and descriptors OK and some not??

Pre-a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, where it meant “before” ( preclude; prevent ); applied freely as a prefix, with the meanings “prior to,” “in advance of,” “early,” “beforehand,” “before,” “in front of,” and with other figurative meanings ( preschool; prewar; prepay; preoral; prefrontal ).

AS IN Prior to model number xx

Well stated. Getting all hung up on these kinds of descriptions is picking the fly-STUFF out of the pepper. A pointless exercise IMO.

If the descriptive term gets the point across, who gives a RIP whether or not it is precisely correct and perfectly, historically in agreement with every detail of the factory's literature or designations of the time?

Seems to me that only a small minority of folks - some of whom are obsessed with such minutia and believe that their obsession elevates them above the rest of us who lack their "expertise" - get themselves all wound up about such things.

Seems like a tempest in a teapot, IMO. But YMMV.

 

[Doug M.]

If one looks in the string about LE snubbies, there is a Roy Jinks letter in which refers to an early Chief as a "pre-36". It may not be a great endorsement of the term, but it is an acknowledgement that the term seems to have utility. It has always meant to me the expression of a model of whatever revolver that is the same as the model numbered version, but made before numbering.

I have seen far worse wording used in my work context - this does not bother me. OTOH, I am not even close to a collector.

 

[jjrr]

It has to “be” before it can be a “pre” and only thing that can’t be a “pre” is the first of “something”.

 

[BC38]

It has to “be” before it can be a “pre” and only thing that can’t be a “pre” is the first of “something”.

Exactly. The factory literature couldn't refer to a 1956 N-frame 357 Magnum as a "pre-27" because there had never been a Model 27. Once they started using the designation Model 27 there was no reason for them to make any reference to the PREvious model. Just like Ford isn't going to include references to it's 2023 models in its 2024 ad copy and literature. Especially when they re-name a model.

 

[Gun Relics]

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

LOL, I tried to register a Pre-27 as a ".357 Magnum" on our California CRIS system. The DOJ called me out saying I needed to use a model name. I guess they thought I had mistakenly just used the caliber. Since then I've use "pre" instead of the real model name when it's a caliber and they seem to like that. Go figure.

 

[Checkman]

LOL, I tried to register a Pre-27 as a ".357 Magnum" on our California CRIS system. The DOJ called me out saying I needed to use a model name. I guess they thought I had mistakenly just used the caliber. Since then I've use "pre" instead of the real model name when it's a caliber and they seem to like that. Go figure.

Have to be flexible when dealing with red tape no matter how much it irritates you.

 

[handejector]

In order to have or need the designation of "pre" when discussing a particular handgun, its required, I would think, that the model or specific type (however it was referred to) gun was made both prior to and following the introduction of model numbers.

You nailed it.
Used correctly, the term is quick and useful. If I know you are knowledgeable and you tell me on the phone you have a 4" Pre 27 for sale, I know you have a rare 4 or 5 screw gun. That used to matter when we were paying for long distance phone calls by the minute.
If I use the term with you, you can rest assured I am using it on a gun that has the same config as the first Model numbered guns with the possible exception of screw count, which I probably specified.
So,
I shall continue using it. You don't have to.

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

This discussion always sets my teeth on edge......Ben

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

Yep, like calling an Edsel the pre Mustang.

Kevin

Indeed there is no reason I would ever use that term because when Smith & Wesson invented model numbers they did. Prior to that the revolvers had names. There was no pre - anything.

All models of S&W revolvers ever built had an official name and none made before 1957 or 1958 were named pre-anything. Just check period S&W catalogs to find the proper names and use them.

It seems like the term "Pre" came into being as a crutch for folks who didn't know the proper name of what they were talking about.

You guys should call this fellow and jack him up because he has done so much to popularize the term!
Let us know how he takes it. \/ \/ \/