Prepping to pass onerous qualification test in New Jersey

[ispcapt]

25 yard qualifications?
If you shoot someone from 25 yards there's a strong likelihood you're going to jail.

I don't know why people keep repeating that line. Totally not true. They think because they couldn't hit an elephant at 25 yards then it must be too far for a righteous shoot.
I've investigated many many shootings. Never ever has that been an issue.
So what you're saying with that line is that if someone is shooting at you from 25 yards they're not a threat to you. Totally bogus thinking. And simply not true.
Can't hit at 25 yards? Then that says a lot about the shooter.
I was teaching one class and as in nearly every class there's that one guy who thinks he knows more than everyone else and likes to blow a lot of smoke. He made the comment that at 100 yards he'd stand there all day and let someone shoot at him with a 2" revolver. 2" guns were only accurate for a few feet.
When we went to the range I set up a B-27 target. We went to 100 yards. Using my S&W 49 I fired 5 rounds and we all went to check the target. All 5 rounds hit COM. The guy started laughing and said I was a lucky shot and couldn't do it again. So back to 100 yards, 5 shots, all COM. By then rest of the class was laughing at the know it all. He left the class.
It really wasn't difficult. Rest the head on the front sight and the rounds drop in COM.

 

[Marshal Tom]

I am a 36+ year retired LE, former Chief and Undersheriff who worked the street my whole life. I am also an NRA pistol instructor with many years of teaching firearms to civilians, new gun owners and everywhere in between. I am all for some sort of practical training involving proper handling, function safety etc. as well as some holster work involving the type of carry that the person plans to utilize. Some states have a CCW class where the student doesn't even have to draw from a holster which in no way prepares them for CCW IMHO.
Our HR218 retired LE qual is a joke (gimme) that is an example of what is should not be! In my classes, I try to take the inexperienced/new shooter and make them comfortable and at least somewhat competent with their firearm for either HD or CCW. Those that feel that they can purchase a firearm and take one of the extremely basic CCW courses and that is all they need are truly fooling themselves but it is clear to me that this NJ qualification requirement for a civilian is an attempt to disqualify many who are not willing to comply with what is clearly over the top.
I also agree with one of the earlier posters who said that most cops couldn't pass, to which I say that you do not know what you are talking about. Most police qualifications that I have been aware of or part of are at least that stringent and in many cases harder in terms of time limits for the various stages and they must pass with a minimum score.I am also very aware that there are cops that can't shoot worth XXXX!

 

[Rodan]

Our state LE qual in AZ is similar, but with more difficult timeframes. It was recently changed to eliminate the string from the 25 yard line, and is now 15 yards and in. For LEOSA, we have to shoot the state qual, and you need to be on your game with a revolver to make some of the reload times... not that it's difficult for an experienced revolver shooter, but the 'average' shooter would find it challenging.

I have mixed feelings on a 'qualification' for CCW. It's a right, so should not be regulated unduly by the state... it's the responsibility of the individual to be competent if you make the choice to carry.

That said, having seen the level of competence of the 'average' shooter, I sometimes think a qualification isn't a bad idea.

 

[rct269]

As much as I am loath to display my ignorance, what is the meaning of "COM"-----as used in Post #21 above?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[GaryS]

MA has no range qualifications, although some municipalities have (probably illegal) qualification requirements. Basically don't shoot yourself or the police officer doing the qualification and you pass.

RI has a qualification requirement. 50 rounds into an Army L course over 30 minutes with a minimum score of 195 out of 300. You can only carry up to the caliber with which you qualified, so most people use a .45. I used my 457.

SC has a classroom portion along with a qualification course. The course of fire is similar to NJ, but only out to 15 yards. It requires both holster draw and shooting from ready gun. It wasn't difficult. I used my 6946 for it.

When we move to TX, I'll get a LTC even though it's not required. There qualification doesn't look to difficult.

That said, NJ is doing what I expect some states will do in order to discourage people from getting a permit. It is no different than poll taxes or literacy tests used to keep blacks from exercising their right to vote. I expect onerous requirements in NJ and other places to meet the same fate.

 

[Rodan]

As much as I am loath to display my ignorance, what is the meaning of "COM"-----as used in Post #21 above?

"center of mass"

 

[rct269]

"center of mass"

Thank you, Sir!

That dawned on me---mere moments after I asked---as in "A day late, and a dollar short.".

RCT

 

[444 Magnum]

I don't know why people keep repeating that line. Totally not true. They think because they couldn't hit an elephant at 25 yards then it must be too far for a righteous shoot.
I've investigated many many shootings. Never ever has that been an issue.
So what you're saying with that line is that if someone is shooting at you from 25 yards they're not a threat to you. Totally bogus thinking. And simply not true.
Can't hit at 25 yards? Then that says a lot about the shooter.
I was teaching one class and as in nearly every class there's that one guy who thinks he knows more than everyone else and likes to blow a lot of smoke. He made the comment that at 100 yards he'd stand there all day and let someone shoot at him with a 2" revolver. 2" guns were only accurate for a few feet.
When we went to the range I set up a B-27 target. We went to 100 yards. Using my S&W 49 I fired 5 rounds and we all went to check the target. All 5 rounds hit COM. The guy started laughing and said I was a lucky shot and couldn't do it again. So back to 100 yards, 5 shots, all COM. By then rest of the class was laughing at the know it all. He left the class.
It really wasn't difficult. Rest the head on the front sight and the rounds drop in COM.

You're missing the point. What I'm saying is that you have options when someone is 75 feet away. I'm not going to shoot someone who's yelling at me from 75 feet away with a knife in his hand. At that distance I have options. Is he a threat? Yes. Is my life in imminent danger from that distance? I don't want to find out what a DA and a jury think if I can avoid a shooting.

Read the post. My example is a woman who is not a sport shooter but wants to protect herself. Can she shoot pistol targets at 50 yards like we do? Probably not and she shouldn't have to in order to carry a firearm. Most self defense shootings are done at close range. Thus, no need to qualify at 25 yards.

 

[Bald1]

I don't know why people keep repeating that line. Totally not true. They think because they couldn't hit an elephant at 25 yards then it must be too far for a righteous shoot.
I've investigated many many shootings. Never ever has that been an issue.
So what you're saying with that line is that if someone is shooting at you from 25 yards they're not a threat to you. Totally bogus thinking. And simply not true.
Can't hit at 25 yards? Then that says a lot about the shooter.
I was teaching one class and as in nearly every class there's that one guy who thinks he knows more than everyone else and likes to blow a lot of smoke. He made the comment that at 100 yards he'd stand there all day and let someone shoot at him with a 2" revolver. 2" guns were only accurate for a few feet.
When we went to the range I set up a B-27 target. We went to 100 yards. Using my S&W 49 I fired 5 rounds and we all went to check the target. All 5 rounds hit COM. The guy started laughing and said I was a lucky shot and couldn't do it again. So back to 100 yards, 5 shots, all COM. By then rest of the class was laughing at the know it all. He left the class.
It really wasn't difficult. Rest the head on the front sight and the rounds drop in COM.

This is why people keep repeating it. Many states ( especially in the northeast) have an obligation to retreat when possible. Well, who’s to say what’s possible. You want the same people who made these laws deciding if you broke them. I don’t.

 

[Inusuit]

I don't remember seeing that in the Constitution.

 

[Greyman50]

Have been shooting since the early 60s, AMU after Vietnam , managed a large indoor shooting range, NRA instructor and continue to shoot several times a week. 15 years ago had to qualify to carry in Va. for my work. Qualified 3 times missing the max score by 1-3 points all 3 times. On couple such the Sheriff of the county was standing behind me. When finished he asked where in the hell did you learn to shoot? I laughed and told him. I saw how the LEOs shot and thats why I posted the, “ most LEOs cant shoot. From knowing many for years( all regular shooters) they will quickly tell anyone most other LEos cant shoot very well. Sadly the days are long gone when most LEOs were “ gun guys”. Today most carry because they have to. Departments dont have the resources or incentives to Train, let alone the $$$ for lots of ammo for LEOs to shoot to become “ good”. Its all a sign of the times.

 

[pharmer]

Bless you Bushie for sticking it out. I know If I still lived there I'd be doing it too @ 70 y/o instead of 35. I'd probably be doing the test more than once much like my driving test in 1970. Joe

 

[smoothshooter]

Seems harder to read th requirements than it would be to pass the test
I’m pretty sure I would pass this test cold , but I’d have to reread the test a couple times
If a guy couldn’t pass this test , he should practice more .

Disagree. The skill level the test requires is far above anything needed for a private citizen to defend themselves or family from an attacker. Keeping your shots on a large cookie sheet sized target out to 10 yards max is good enough.
Almost no attacks take place at distance. Most are at contact distance or out to maybe 15 to 20 feet.
Would be pretty hard in a Lefty state courtroom to justify firing at an attacker at 20-25 yards. The prosecution would say the attacker was too far away to have posed an imminent threat.

 

[djohns6]

I don't think the issue is whether you can pass the test or not . At least , it shouldn't be .

 

[kamloops67]

Disagree. The skill level the test requires is far above anything needed for a private citizen to defend themselves or family from an attacker. Keeping your shots on a large cookie sheet sized target out to 10 yards max is good enough.
Almost no attacks take place at distance. Most are at contact distance or out to maybe 15 to 20 feet.
Would be pretty hard in a Lefty state courtroom to justify firing at an attacker at 20-25 yards. The prosecution would say the attacker was too far away to have posed an imminent threat.

My thinking is that a person should have the precision and muscle memory to drive the bullets home
Every shot fired lands somewhere , an untrained or unpracticed person could put rounds anywhere under stress
I’m certainly no expert , I just feel being familiar with your tools will make any job easier

 

[riverrat38]

The requirement that revolvers have to be fired double action eliminate the person who uses a Colt SAA for defense.
The requirement that I decock my S&W M442 has me confused.
If they don't make reasonable accommodation for disabled persons, they will run afoul of the ADA. I read a post some time ago that said requirements for classroom and range work should be designed so that an 85 YO grandmother in a wheelchair can pass using her grandfathers WW1 Webley revolver. I agree.
I am pretty sure that I could hit the target outline at 15 yards, 80% of the time, with my sling shot or long bow, but not at a very fast rate of fire. If I want to carry a cap and ball revolver, I might need a longer reload time.
Finally, Washington State wants to outlaw most guns that could be used to pass this test. They already have outlawed all semi rifles, including 22LR Rugers, and I suspect that they have their sights on semi handguns, on the theory that anyone who goes that far won't stop there!

73,
Rick

 

[The Big D]

Onerous?

This course is not onerous. It is almost identical to the one I (and many others) must shoot every year to maintain my LEOSA qualification.

None of the guns I shoot has a decocking lever but suspect that requirement applies only to guns equipped with such in the instant case.

Re: kneeling, it is made very clear that you must and the instructors will NOT assist you in getting down or standing up. That said, the gun is not drawn until you are “down” and is reholstered before getting “up” in an attempt to minimize the chances of negligent discharge.

I am 74, have shot this course for decades, and have never had a problem.

Be safe.

 

[stansdds]

Not everyone has healthy knees. What about people with disabilities? How could someone who is confined to a wheelchair pass this qualification? Or are the disabled not allowed to qualify? Oh, if that is the case, can you say "discrimination" boys and girls? Sure, I thought you could.

 

[ladder13]

Well, if you need to do everything LE does why shouldnt you get LEOSA?

 

[tomahawk223]

When this type of training is required for other constitutional rights such as requiring training and education prior to receiving your "permit to vote" card then we'll see. the end result of pulling your trigger on your gun or pulling the lever on a voting machine without being properly trained or informed will most certainly end in a disaster