Price of auto vs. revos? Need 'Seasoned' input

[VictorLouis]

This has been bothering me for some time, so I finally had it come to mind whilst being on here to post about it, LOL.

Ruger and Smith have essentially had the same revolvers, and sub-types, for eons now. Yet, they've both been coming out with new, and newer auto pistol designs. Now granted, I know plastic is cheap, but I know that the mold development and investment cost for those frames are quite costly. I also know that things pan-out with economy of scale, and that autos have been outselling revolvers for some time now.

Why can one find a real-world, street-priced, service-sized, poly-wunder-pistol for hi-threes to low-fours, but you have to add two or three hundred to that for a service revolver? There DOES seem to be some level of parity in the compacts, J-frame/LCR, vs. Shield/LC9.

It would seem to me that revolvers, all else being equal, 'should' be priced LESS than comparable pistols just to spur their sales.

Now, for the older-members here, has this always been the case? When Colt was selling a 1911 for $279, was a Python around $450? When Smith was selling 3rg Gens for $4-$500 street, I don't recall the K/L series being dramatically more, do you?

IN fact, revolvers have become CHEAPER to produce due to elimination of forging for MIM, which also has saved on hand-fitting. Cheaper engraving, petroleum by-product grips vs. natural woods, etc etc.

Am I just out of touch?

 

[alwslate]

I'll venture an opinion which is just my opinion as I don't really know.
Revolvers require more machining and require very precise fitting and
so are more expensive to manufacture than autos. Lowering the price
of revolvers won't make buyers choose to buy a revolver rather than
the auto they want. I think marketing plays a role. The popularity and
demand for autos means that the competition is strong for market
share in auto sales. This means that companies will look for ways to
lower pricing to be competitive. Which probably means that buyers of
revolvers and other products are subsidizing the reduced priced autos.
Maybe someone with insider knowledge will comment.

 

[Rick_A]

For a metal framed gun their 1911's are a fair comparison to the revolvers.

The alloy J frames have remained at a fair price for some time.

The Bodyguard .38 is a bit of a different animal. The entire design appears to have price point as a consideration.

To my understanding, once the tooling costs for the molds have been covered, producing the polymer frames is very inexpensive.

With inflation in mind, even with modern production methods, they're still worth about what the street price commands.

 

[Donn]

All I know is what the owner of my LGS tells me. Despite the new processes, revolvers are still more expensive to make. Price? Not really a factor. Most customers want a plastic fantastic auto pistol with 17+1 hi-cap mags. With the exception of J frames, most people won't look twice at a revolver. They see a cylinder that only hold 5 to 8 rounds and they fall victim to popular opinion, mainly "I've got to have at least 17rds to survive an SD situation." It's OK with me. I know that S&W 686 I covet will still be at the store when my credit card and I are on speaking terms again.

 

[Rick_A]

I have to add, it annoys me that people these days seem to feel firearms are so expensive. quality firearm starts at around $1000. A budget gun is 3-$500. The junkers are 1-$200. The people wanting more for less has driven manufacturers to produce guns with numerous cost cutting measures.

 

[skrazo]

They see a cylinder that only hold 5 to 8 rounds and they fall victim to popular opinion, mainly "I've got to have at least 17rds to survive an SD situation."

Don't tell those "17rds guys", but if they just "hit" what they are shooting at, 5 or 6 rds would likely be adequate.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Pythons were always Premimum Priced , and not a good comparison.

Back in the Day , a decent autoloader cost about 50% more than a service grade revolver. Demand , and economies of scale.

Nowdays , there are a plethora of semis that are closely competing for LE contracts , and tend to cluster in a price range. Likewise several that cluster in price point for the value minded civilian market. Meanwhile normal sized revolvers are a niche product for collectors and traditionalists. And for the better part of twenty years newly mfg service type revolvers were competing with the flood of LE trade ins, which in the last few years is finally slowing to a trickle.

But if you whip out your calculator and adjust for inflation , it is more a matter of semiautos droping in constant dollars than revolvers going up. At least if you look at overall long term.

 

[johngalt]

Pricing on lots of firearms don't make sense.

On the auto vs revolver: the revolver has lots of hand fitted parts. Autos are designed to require NO fitting. Even the 1911 100 years ago was designed such that one could be assembled from a box of random parts and function reliably.

The mystery for me is handguns vs rifles. A new Winchester M70 is less expensive than most quality handgun.

 

[Otreb]

Colt 1911 was a mass produced wartime pistol, economy of scale factor heavily in comparison to Python, a hand fitted V spring contraption capable of handling a great deal more power and generally accepted as being 2-3 MOA at 100yrds.
Revolvers still require a great deal more precision and fitting of parts to make, and still generally exhibit a good deal more precision at the range too.....plus offering more power, exotic materials and power/weight ratios over auto pistols of similar price points.

 

[UncleEd]

Although I'm very much into autos (used to be a DA only revolver guy), I realize one "hidden" cost in autos is the magazine.

Even if you buy a moderately priced auto, reliable mags usually run $30 to $45. So if you want more of them for ease of use at the range, etc, the extra mags can cost a third of what the gun cost originally.

And the Uplula mag loader never seems to be less than $30 and I consider it, especially at my age, a necessity.

So when you factor in the extra mags and the mag loader, the price of the auto starts to approach the revolver's price. And while the auto's springs and small parts aren't a lot, they do add up since their replacement for reliability seems to be an imperative.

As for speedloaders in revolvers, usually $5 to $8 does it.

Hmmm, now where's my 586?

 

[VictorLouis]

Despite the new processes, revolvers are still more expensive to make. .... With the exception of J frames, most people won't look twice at a revolver.

I can't see how they are. Frame forgings are essentially the same as they were decades ago. MIM internals are cheaper than forged. Modern CNC machines have largely displaced the need for hand-fitting. That leaves hand-finishing (perhaps?), and hand-assembly.

Pythons were always Premimum Priced , and not a good comparison.

Back in the Day , a decent autoloader cost about 50% more than a service grade revolver. Demand , and economies of scale.

Nowdays , there are a plethora of semis that are closely competing for LE contracts , and tend to cluster in a price range. Likewise several that cluster in price point for the value minded civilian market. Meanwhile normal sized revolvers are a niche product for collectors and traditionalists. And for the better part of twenty years newly mfg service type revolvers were competing with the flood of LE trade ins, which in the last few years is finally slowing to a trickle.

But if you whip out your calculator and adjust for inflation , it is more a matter of semiautos droping in constant dollars than revolvers going up. At least if you look at overall long term.

I think you got a good handle on what I mean. Okay, my Python comparo was not a good one, granted. But you answered my question. The typical auto WAS more expensive than the revolver. So now, it's simply swung the other way? The autos are the "dime-a-dozen" product, LOL ?

 

[skrazo]

Revolvers are definitely "no good". Since I'm such a nice guy, if y'all send yours to me, I'll see to it they are properly "taken care of".

 

[finesse_r]

Semi-autos are a lot easier for the average person with at least some knowledge of handguns and how to use them, to shoot a lot of rounds quickly and accurately. It takes a lot more practice to become a real expert with a revolver than with a semi-auto. However, it can be done.

Funny however, the rank novice is usually better off with the revolver because of its simplicity, and its reliability for the first 5 or 6 rounds. However, to shoot a revolver double action style, quickly and accurately, and reload quickly takes some serious practice.

Also a .45ACP revolver and a .9mm revolver kick more than their counter part in Semi-automatic when shooting the exact same cartridge.

In the past the reliability of semi-autos was much lower than it is today. Improvements in this area are in my opinion the primary reason for the shift to semi-autos by so many agencies and by so many individuals. Still I give the nod in reliability to my revolvers, but not by much as I have some very high quality semi-auto loaders. I still would not want to trust my life to one of the cheap plastic fantastics micro semis that are taking the current market by storm.

The smaller the gun the more difficult it is to engineer that semi-auto action reliably. With the current price cutting and lack of quality control, I have only old school guns, like third generation S&W, and pre-lock revolvers, and Ruger revolvers. I still consider the third generation S&W semi-autos to be the best buy available. If there is a group of quality handguns that is still under valued by the market that is it.

Why buy a new Bursa or Taurus when for a little more you can get a 3913 or 3914 or 6906? Chances are the new gun will be sent back to the factory more than once, and will never be quite right and that old 3913 will be good to go for as long as any of us will live. I have never had one jam or fail to fire ever.

The main reason the third generation pistols are so under valued is that so many were sold to police agencies who have gone to the plastic fantastics. The market was for a while flooded with excellent third generation pistols at a steal. They are slowly but surely climbing up in price, but they still remain one of the best buys in semi-autos available.

I think that as the current supply continues to find permanent homes the price of those guns will eventually equal the price of the pre-lock S&W revolvers.

 

[Dennis The B]

I can't see how they are. Frame forgings are essentially the same as they were decades ago. MIM internals are cheaper than forged. Modern CNC machines have largely displaced the need for hand-fitting. That leaves hand-finishing (perhaps?), and hand-assembly...

Frame forgings today are more accurately done than in the late 1970's. However, they still have to be finished and fine-machined so they're exactly to spec. There's less hand fitting because of it. CNC and digital machining are far superior, but the frame still has to be machined.

MIM doesn't translate to cheaper when it comes to finished parts. MIM makes some forging processes unnecessary and eliminates a lot of excess material, but it does not make final machining, finishing, polishing, etc. unnecessary.

 

[Rule3]

How much metal and processing goes into a say a 686 Revolver versus a MP 9mm??

Heck just the price of the metal is what costs. Doesn't matter if it's a bored out to a 22Lr or a 357, just a bigger hole. The metal is the same.

Yes, I also find it strange that a quality revolver costs more than a nice rifle with real walnut stock??

 

[Big Cholla]

Revolvers are much more complicated than autoloaders, both in manufacture and maintenance. Revolvers are a little less desirable in a tactical situation than an autoloader. Fewer revolvers are sold vs. comparable caliber semi-autoloaders. Cost of production is only one factor in determining selling price. Certain costs become less of a factor per unit as the quantities of any given product produced increases. The laws of supply and demand are constantly in play with any manufactured product. The more the demand, the more the margin of profit can be moved upward. The final pricing of all of S&Ws products take all those factors and many more into account by a review board probably on a quarterly basis for each and every product. All this leads to my opinion that costly revolvers to produce are more of the 'loss leader' for most handgun manufacturers right now given the popularity of autoloaders. As long as there is some demand for revolvers and the engineering, tooling and marketing costs are diminishing rapidly for each unit sold, IMHO S&W is going to keep manufacturing revolvers for a long time just to prevent loss of market share. The final pricing of both products is a result of factoring in many, many considerations. What the final pricing is not a result of is simplistic cost of manufacture of each unit. .............. Big Cholla

 

[Road Rat]

Prices stay fairly stable................except in panic times!

In 1975 I bought a new 39-2 for $175.00 plus sales tax.

Today S&W sells their 9mm pistols for $569 to $829 msrp.

My $175 adjusted for inflation today would cost $775......

I don't see an increase and, in fact, you can purchase a new S&W 9mm for much less than the $775...........

quiturbitchin and buy a new firearm.............yee haw

 

[ky wonder]

Prices stay fairly stable................except in panic times!

In 1975 I bought a new 39-2 for $175.00 plus sales tax.

Today S&W sells their 9mm pistols for $569 to $829 msrp.

My $175 adjusted for inflation today would cost $775......

I don't see an increase and, in fact, you can purchase a new S&W 9mm for much less than the $775...........

quiturbitchin and buy a new firearm.............yee haw

I took my graduation money in 1970 and bought a brand new python, it cost me $169

 

[bigmoneylewis]

About 98% of semi-autos today are made out of plastic . Generally speaking revolvers a better quality firearm , better materials , better
fit / finish etc. No where near the quailty of revolvers of days gone by,
but still looked upon as a better product than plastic (dildo) guns .
Thus...the higher price tag .

Lewis

 

[cowart]

Why can one find a real-world, street-priced, service-sized, poly-wunder-pistol for hi-threes to low-fours, but you have to add two or three hundred to that for a service revolver?

Revolvers simply have many more parts than a comparable semiauto. Compare a Glock to an S&W:

17 GLOCK Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts - parts count in the 30s
14-4 Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts - parts count in the 70s