Primer comparison question

[Rule3]

Actually this is how Brinell testing is done. It is one of the more accurate ways of testing hardness and is done by using a ball fired on an surface with a set force. (A sharp blow). Then the size of the indent is compared using an optical comparitor to a set of know hardness indents and the size of indent that the test indent makes corresponds to the objects hardness. This is a very scientific test of hardness with very repeatable results.

As to how hard to ignite a primer maybe not due to possible variances in primer compounds and maybe anvil construction. Though, I doubt primer compounds or anvils vary that much. But, as far as how hard it is to dent and then flatten a brand of primer when it is recoiled into the face of the recoil shield, bolt face or what have you, it would be very accurate.

Have you read the PDF?

Yes, the firing of a ball with a sharp blow is the correct test.

The cited "study" did not do that. They did this:

"A hardness test rig shall apply 50lbf to a conical anvil for a duration of 30 seconds."

Nooptical comparitor was used and the same primer that was dented was also fired

The test was done by Fort Wayne Tactical LLC

 

[yeti]

Do you have any hard evidence to support what you think? If you do, you will be the first one who has ever posted anything like this here. If someone can provide some substantiated published lab results from a reliable source instead of guesswork, parroted anecdotal stories, or old wives' tales, maybe I'll believe it. Otherwise, I don't. And no one else should either.

Hi DW,
My evidence is based upon firsthand experience with what will work & not work in very light DA revolvers.
I clearly stated in my post that this was my opinion. I also said that you were free to disagree, which you did.
Are primers a hot button issue?

I find it odd that we can't find some testing results out there that will finally answer many of these questions. Until then....

 

[Rule3]

Hi DW,
My evidence is based upon firsthand experience with what will work & not work in very light DA revolvers.
I clearly stated in my post that this was my opinion. I also said that you were free to disagree, which you did.
Are primers a hot button issue?

I find it odd that we can't find some testing results out there that will finally answer many of these questions. Until then....

Very good question. The problem with finding actual scientifically valid tests is that they are expensive to do,

Plus primer manufactures fluctuate.

Even during the "great ammo shortage" Manufacturers of brand ammo like Hornady had to use what ever primers they could get just like us. I had issue with some Hornady ammo and sent it to them for testing, (where I got that information)

Most of the info out there is as you say anecdotal, but it is the internet so it must be true!

For the record I never use Federal primers, I use Win, CCI and Wolf and they all go bang in many different revolvers and semi autos. Sometimes Wolf will not go bang in my very light trigger CZ Custom and 1911, but for range use I do not care. Winchesters always work.

And yes it is a "hot button" item that has gone on for years and years, kinda like bets dies, and how to clean brass.

 

[DWalt]

All of the primer manufacturers perform what are called up-down drop tests as part of their QA procedures. This test is highly standardized, and determines the amount of energy required to cause the primer to fire. It works by dropping a steel ball from variable heights. Different ball weights are used for different sizes and types of primers. The ball strikes a firing pin, which is of a standard dimensional design. The exact procedure used is a little complicated but it is statistically very sound.

While most probably do not have this book, George E. Frost's book, "Making Ammunition" describes the drop test equipment and the test methodology in great detail (Frost was technical director at Western for many years). You can be certain that drop test primer impact sensitivity data for every type and brand of primers made exists at every manufacturer, but it is not shared.

Unless and until such reliable information becomes available, I prefer to disbelieve anything I read about primer sensitivity on forums like this one as it has no substantiation.

 

[RGPM1A]

A picture of primers fired in my 929. I was quite concerned
I normally don't post my loads. But, these were, a 147 gr. xtreme plated .356 bullet,, with 3.5 grs. of Bullseye,, Federal SP primers, 1.135 OAL averaged 853 fps out of the 929.
I usually used only Winchester brass in the 929,, but tried different brass to see if it made a difference.

Never had any problems with them ,, but it sure flatten the primers in the revolver.

I don't have a picture of the same load shot out of my autos. But the primers were not flatten at all, and average 950 fps out of my autos.

I also have other firearms that uses moonclips and rimless cartridges and have never noticed the primers this flat?

The spent brass from my 929 looks exactly the same. My load is 4 grains of Power Pistol over a Berries 147 grain plated RN bullet. Not a hot load at all. I think its the primer conforming to the firing pin bushing. I too have other moon clip revolvers and spent brass from none of them looks like that from the 929.

 

[RGPM1A]

All of the primer manufacturers perform what are called up-down drop tests as part of their QA procedures. This test is highly standardized, and determines the amount of energy required to cause the primer to fire. It works by dropping a steel ball from variable heights. Different ball weights are used for different sizes and types of primers. The ball strikes a firing pin, which is of a standard dimensional design. The exact procedure used is a little complicated but it is statistically very sound.

While most probably do not have this book, George E. Frost's book, "Making Ammunition" describes the drop test equipment and the test methodology in great detail (Frost was technical director at Western for many years). You can be certain that drop test primer impact sensitivity data for every type and brand of primers made exists at every manufacturer, but it is not shared.

Unless and until such reliable information becomes available, I prefer to disbelieve anything I read about primer sensitivity on forums like this one as it has no substantiation.

The proper name for the up and down test is a Bruceton analysis. A more modern version of the test is called a Neyer analysis and is often used because it requires fewer samples than a Bruceton to obtain a sensitivity result at the confidence level you select.

So much for the statistics lesson.

From my experience in competition revolvers with light double action trigger pulls Federal primers are the most sensitive.

As others noticed and mentioned - why do you think Federal uses that expensive bulky packaging when others don't? Because they are more sensitive. All potentially mass detonating articles undergo extensive testing to obtain a shipping classification from the USDOT. Manufacturers package their products so they are sure they will pass these tests.

 

[old&slow]

Hi DW,
My evidence is based upon firsthand experience with what will work & not work in very light DA revolvers.
I clearly stated in my post that this was my opinion. I also said that you were free to disagree, which you did.
Are primers a hot button issue?

I find it odd that we can't find some testing results out there that will finally answer many of these questions. Until then....

My last two cent:
A previous poster was interested in evidence to support the discussion about primers. I did a quick search and found a report on the subject and linked to it.

I didn't do the test or have anything to do with the results.
If you say the testing / results are not to your liking, that's fine.
But, it is more evidence than you have provided.

Yeti indicates his conclusions are based on his experiences. I agree.
I also base my opinion on 48 years of reloading, shooting, & competition.
I have shot tens of thousands of rounds of ammo.
And I have used Federal, Winchester, & CCI primers.

I don't have thousands of dollars worth of equipment for scientific testing.
My bet is neither do you.

So, it sounds like your uninformed opinion -vs- my uninformed opinion.
Quite honesty I couldn't care less as to what primer you use or prefer.
But, it has been a somewhat interesting debate.

Hope everyone has a Very Merry Christmas !!

jmclfrsh , see I told you primer hardness would start a ******* contest..

 

[Rule3]

Please Let the Horse die in peace