ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Please stop discussing wars and what the government is doing. I don't want to close this thread but I am close.
Primers are about 10 cents each.....
- Thread starter rwsmith
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Or production is the same and demand is up?
Or production is up and demand is up even more?
I think it is the last one.
As for ramping up production even further, you're talking a MAJOR capital investment to build increased production capacity.
And what happens to all that investment into extra capacity when demand drops off? It sits idle until the next shortage and in the meantime it no longer pays for itself.
Three years or even five years of higher demand is a blip on the financial spreadsheets of a large corporation, especially when you compare it to the investment required to ramp up production capacity, just to meet short term, temporary increases in demand.
I don't blame them for not investing tens of millions of dollars into higher production capacity that will only be needed - and therefore will only provide a good return on investment - for a relatively short period of time.
That isn't a sign of any kind of conspiracy. It is market forecasting and managing the company for long-term profitability and return on investment to the investors.
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So then you live in an area where there are no big retail stores that carry these kinds of things close by?
If that is the case is it really all that surprising that a commodity that is in more limited supply is going to be harder to find at the local mom and pop shop?
Seems logical to me. But it doesn't seem like proof of a conspiracy by anyone to limit availability or raise prices.
Seems more like a distribution issue to me. You obviously have internet access, and several people have already shared info about online sources - some with no hazmat or shipping fees.
I guess I don't see where anyone is conspiring to keep you from getting what you want. Of course prices are up these days, but that is pretty universally true for everything after a couple of years of 6%-9% inflation, isn't it?
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
As for ramping up production. I don't think anyone is suggesting a major upgrade costing many of millions of dollars. They can put in a few more machines which cost a lot less than most are guessing. If all the manufacturers would do that the "shortage" would ease.
Paul in Nevada
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I get it man but those are real world causes of price increases. If the government enacted a tariff on lead, and prices went up; would we not be allowed to mention it?
I have a Bass Pro nearby. I stop in once and again and might find 2 boxes of SPP or SRP, and that is about it. No selection of brands either. Wonder why my local store doesn't have the variety and stock of the stores you guys speak of? Makes no sense to me.
As for ammo supply, the usual military ammo, 5.56 and 9mm are overstocked at Academy Sports. I forgot how many pallets they told me they have in stock, so they have been having sales. Seems the manufacture of ammo is caught up at least on the major cartridges. So why hasn't the primer supply loosened up also?
Rosewood
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I suppose so - assuming they all have empty, unused space in their existing factory buildings to install the machines for a new production line. Which would be really unusual. Most factories I've ever seen don't have a lot of unused floor space because paying rent on unused space cuts into the bottom line.
So my comments about the costs assumed the need to build or lease new space - along with all the permitting and licensing costs associated with starting up a production space for such a heavily regulated business.
FWIW, I worked 3 years as service manager for an electrical contractor and did quite a few jobs to install new electrical circuits to relocate/rearrange/add production machines in local manufacturing facilities. Never saw one that had room to spare. Pretty much every project I ever did that added new machines required moving or eliminating others.
Before that I spent 26 years as a Facilities Engineering Supervisor for a Fortune 100 company and worked on several projects building new facilities, and God knows how many smaller projects rearranging or upgrading the machinery in existing facilities. I think most people would probably be shocked to see what kind of money it takes to execute those kinds of projects.
That's the background and experience that I come from and I based my statements about adding production capacity on. But none of that involved ammo manufacturing facilities, so maybe they are different than everything else.
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At the end of the day you have to decide what calibers are worth reloading given the cost of components today.
For me, I have a several thousand SPP and SRP laying around that I bought in the late-90s @ 10 bucks a thousand, along with thousands of .355 plated FMJ bullets. With the cost of 9mm ammo these days, since the prices have come way down from Covid highs, it makes no sense to me to use those components for loading 9mm ammo. I save those components for loading .38 Super.
I'm on the fence with loading .38 Special. Even though I have literally tens of thousands of pieces of brass and probably 10,000 bullets of various types, I'm not sure if I'll buy cheap practice .38 when I run into it or I'll load.
I've never loaded .45 ACP and shoot so little of it that it makes no sense to buy components for it.
For me, I have a several thousand SPP and SRP laying around that I bought in the late-90s @ 10 bucks a thousand, along with thousands of .355 plated FMJ bullets. With the cost of 9mm ammo these days, since the prices have come way down from Covid highs, it makes no sense to me to use those components for loading 9mm ammo. I save those components for loading .38 Super.
I'm on the fence with loading .38 Special. Even though I have literally tens of thousands of pieces of brass and probably 10,000 bullets of various types, I'm not sure if I'll buy cheap practice .38 when I run into it or I'll load.
I've never loaded .45 ACP and shoot so little of it that it makes no sense to buy components for it.
There are no cheap practice .38 special ammo out there (that I have seen). I have been seeing 50 round boxes of lead bullets for $30+. I have yet to see 38 special less than $30 in any flavor. That is 60 cents per round. We are in roll your own territory at the moment.
Not so many years ago, the 38 was the least expensive factory centerfire ammo to buy. No longer.
Rosewood
Federal regulation is one factor many of us fail to consider. No telling what is required to add capacity. Especially depending on what state you are in.
Rosewood
I haven't looked since pre-Covid, so I'm sure you're right. The last 38s I bought were Precision One remanufactured stuff in an ammo can.
Alton
Member
Walked into my LGS today where they have always had primers but a limit of 100 sold at MSRP. Looked today at the website and no mention of a limit? I get there at lunch and wait 20 minutes till some one tells a young man coming off his lunch to help me. I tell him 1000 BR2 (which show in their book and online for $159 a K) please and he comes back with only 500, so I take them along with a Hornady Dial Caliper. He checks me out and tells me my total is $107. I don't question, pay and walk out out. He sold me the primers for $59 for 500, still expensive but at least it wasn't $79.95
So the take away thought from all of this discussion is what steps are you going to take when you start buying primers and powder again?
The lesson I learned during The Great Obama 22 Ammunition Panic was to never be caught short of .22 ammunition again. Actually I don’t have much interest in shooting .22 guns so I didn’t get caught up in it but after things settled down there wasn’t any excuse to not stock up. I now have around 10k - 11k of different brands of .22 on hand. (.22 firearms are well know to be ammo sensitive). Even though I still don’t have much interest in shooting .22 firearms I have brought several pistols. So during this panic I have switched to shooting my .22 firearms without worry of running short.
After prices reach a point that I am willing to pay restocking my primer supply will be at the top of the list along with getting some different rifle powders for more flexibility working up loads.
I am not sure what my buy price for primers will be. If it gets below five cents each I will be thinking hard about how much longer do I want to wait.
The lesson I learned during The Great Obama 22 Ammunition Panic was to never be caught short of .22 ammunition again. Actually I don’t have much interest in shooting .22 guns so I didn’t get caught up in it but after things settled down there wasn’t any excuse to not stock up. I now have around 10k - 11k of different brands of .22 on hand. (.22 firearms are well know to be ammo sensitive). Even though I still don’t have much interest in shooting .22 firearms I have brought several pistols. So during this panic I have switched to shooting my .22 firearms without worry of running short.
After prices reach a point that I am willing to pay restocking my primer supply will be at the top of the list along with getting some different rifle powders for more flexibility working up loads.
I am not sure what my buy price for primers will be. If it gets below five cents each I will be thinking hard about how much longer do I want to wait.
cmj8591
Member
Can't you buy on line in Penn?
kbm6893
Member
Sure I can. It’s just with hazmat and shipping buying online is usually not such a great deal. I just checked Cabelas and bass pro. Everything says in store only and only $25 to ship if it’s available online. $80 for 1000 plus shipping and tax! Yeah, everything is back to normal!
I ordered 2 bricks of those Argentinian primers and they’ll be here tomorrow. $130 shipped for the two. $70 more than I used to buy right up the block from me.
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cmj8591
Member
Welcome to 2023. I think the only options we have at this point is to pay the ransom or stop shooting. Cabela's and BP are not always the best deal. I've found myself using Target Sports and Midway quite a bit. They always seem to have primers and if they don't, it's usually not long before they come back in stock. The other problem I have is that not all of them will ship to Mass. Price wise they're all close but if you watch, some, especially Midway, will have free shipping if you spend 100 bucks so you can save there. I'm not ready to quit the hobby so as long as I can afford it and I think that hording in an attempt to save money is a bit of a fools errand right now. I try to keep enough stuff on hand to carry me through for a while if the supply is interrupted but I don't stock up as a hedge against inflation.
Man, that would be like a dream come true. Federal SPP is my favorite primer. I heard we are getting a Sportsman's Warehouse about 10 miles from my house, but the development is just starting to break ground so no idea how long it will be before that store is built and open.
Rosewood
Alton
Member
Shop products in Primers today | CCI Ammunition
What is amazing is the MSRP difference in primers small rifle $59 a 1000, BR 2 $169 a 1000
What is amazing is the MSRP difference in primers small rifle $59 a 1000, BR 2 $169 a 1000
kbm6893
Member
When I click on the link it says boldly right on top, Not Available Online. And even if they were, 130 bucks for a brick of small rifle primers, then add tax, shipping, and hazmat.
I’ve never said you can’t get them. I said they are hard to get, double the old price(at least), and when you add hazmat and tax, they are way overpriced.
It’s not demand. Ammo is on the shelf. The covid panic buying is over, and all those new shooters bought a box or two in 2020 and probably never even shot the gun. It’s not Ukraine. We’re not using more ammo to supply Ukraine then We do our own military, especially between 2001 and say 2015 when we were in the thick of it over there, and I was buying cases shipped to my door and seeing shelves full of primers at Gander Mountain, for less than $30 a brick. It’s two companies controlling the entire market who discovered that people are happy to pay way more for their product then they used to charge, and they’re taking advantage of that, and hoping we’re too stupid to believe it’s Ukraine’s fault.
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