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- Thread starter t3chnoid
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I think "Get off the X", as mentioned by Erich, covers (pun intended) this perfectly adequately. Seriously. I appreciate the discussion your question has prompted, though.
Have you tried a Merino wool T-shirt or other garment? I have found Merino wool superior to everything else as a next-to-skin/wicking garment. The Merino wool does not itch (longer, softer fiber or some such reason), breathes great when the body is warm, insulates when it is cold; and it does not stink as the wool naturally has some anti-bacterial property! I have heard polar explorers have worn the same Merino wool long underwear for 90 days at a stretch. The only place synthetic fibers have it beat is durability, but for most applications the Merino wool wears fine. Anyway, I think the stuff is great--summer or winter--in the proper weight and cut. SmartWool is one brand; I like Icebreaker brand for shirts.
I seem to recall Ayoob having written something that I remembered more along the lines of the following: That if one is starting with an undrawn gun, one should never expect to beat a drawn gun to the first shot. Might this be the same line (however originally worded) you read, t3chnoid?
I started carrying a handgun years ago with the understanding that if I ever drew it I would already be facing a drawn gun. I managed service stations for Exxon and there was a string of robberies when after taking the cash they shot everyone there. One such robbery was only a block away, which prompted me to start carrying my 1911A1. Taking money is one thing but the flat out killings was something different all together.
A while back I modified Erics tag line and use it on another forum.
"Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is just sales pitch"
A while back I modified Erics tag line and use it on another forum.
"Shot-placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is just sales pitch"
Erich
Member
What I remember Mas's saying was that if you were in a store or a bank and the perp or perps had taken control and were starting to herd you and the other folks into the back or a vault or whatever, out of sight, you should probably go for it before you got there.
Ayoob is not a dogmatic kind of guy. He thinks, and I reckon he hopes other folks will, too. There are a lot of possible situations, and it might be hard to find one rule that covers them all.
Ayoob is not a dogmatic kind of guy. He thinks, and I reckon he hopes other folks will, too. There are a lot of possible situations, and it might be hard to find one rule that covers them all.
Erich
Member
"Try not to get killed."
Sorry for the delay. Here is a quote from In The Gravest Extreme c 1980, page 46 To draw against a drawn gun is suicide; this is the most basic tenet of gunfighting, not to mention common sense, . . .
In my mind, if facing a drawn gun, I need a distraction. Yelling to an imaginary person behind the gunman, or even a casual eye-fake and smile to that imaginary person will buy you a fraction of a second to start moving and drawing. If you carry a back-pocket pistol, a distraction is to say "hold on, let me get my wallet out and see what I can give you" which will distact your draw so you can move and present not having lost the time in the draw.
I agree that for a CHL holder, there are many scenarios where you will need to catch up with your attacker by drawing when he is already prepared with, or even using, his weapon.
So, not to pretend I have any fraction of the experience and wisdom of Massad Ayoob, my interpretation of his statement about drawing on a drawn gun is that if you don't do something more than simply try to out-draw him when that contest is already over, you're going to get shot.
Which brings us to: distract, fake, move, fire, maneuver.
Regarding defense, I always thought it would be cool (if a bit excessive, but that's part of the fun
Erich
Member
Mas has recommended doing just that for years.
In fact, his exact suggestion in his Combat Handgunnery book was to stash one in the closet in case of such an event.
Quote from p. 200 of the 5th Ed. of Mas' Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery:
Great minds appear to think alike.
Quote from p. 200 of the 5th Ed. of Mas' Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery:
Great minds appear to think alike.
scoutsdad
Member
I know that I may not beat a drawn gun. But what are the chances that their first shot will hit the target(me).
GatorFarmer
Member
There's a small ballistic shield that someone or another is making, apparently for the home defense market. Clint Smith was writing about it a while back in one of the gun mags. I've no experience with it, but it looked like the coverage was rather limited on that particular model.
The biggest problem with ballistic shield's that I found was a combination of price and performance limitations. Basically I'd be losing one hand to carry a shield up in front of me. They're also around twice the cost of an acceptable (Maurom Dolphin Israeli made) tac vest w/ rifle plates despite providing only pistol level protection. It's only about 700 bucks, give or take, for a set up like that.
I keep a seperate set of armor for at home use since I don't have to worry about the weight of the rifle plates on my person all day. It's a lot easier to move around, and you're covered from more angles to simply have your armor on your person. That way you've also got both hands free in case you have to clear a malfunction, reload, etc.
But I digress...
On the subject of drawing against a drawn gun, it really depends on what the choice is between. I will not let myself be disarmed, placed into the trunk of a car, bound etc. I'm also not getting on my knees or laying down on the floor (common preludes to execution). I'm not taking my clothes off either, though that's a request more likely to be applicable to a woman. (Though you never know. The perils of internet dating and all that.)
Hits from handguns are lethal something like 17 percent of the time. Not great odds, but not terrible odds depending on the likely alternatives. If I'm going to get shot anyway, I'd rather get shot while trying to do something than take one in the back of the head laying on the floor. One has to weigh between two bad choices. It's like choosing to drink bleach or Drano. Neither is really good for you, and it is going to hurt either way, but there's enough of a difference in degree to be worth noting.
The biggest problem with ballistic shield's that I found was a combination of price and performance limitations. Basically I'd be losing one hand to carry a shield up in front of me. They're also around twice the cost of an acceptable (Maurom Dolphin Israeli made) tac vest w/ rifle plates despite providing only pistol level protection. It's only about 700 bucks, give or take, for a set up like that.
I keep a seperate set of armor for at home use since I don't have to worry about the weight of the rifle plates on my person all day. It's a lot easier to move around, and you're covered from more angles to simply have your armor on your person. That way you've also got both hands free in case you have to clear a malfunction, reload, etc.
But I digress...
On the subject of drawing against a drawn gun, it really depends on what the choice is between. I will not let myself be disarmed, placed into the trunk of a car, bound etc. I'm also not getting on my knees or laying down on the floor (common preludes to execution). I'm not taking my clothes off either, though that's a request more likely to be applicable to a woman. (Though you never know. The perils of internet dating and all that.)
Hits from handguns are lethal something like 17 percent of the time. Not great odds, but not terrible odds depending on the likely alternatives. If I'm going to get shot anyway, I'd rather get shot while trying to do something than take one in the back of the head laying on the floor. One has to weigh between two bad choices. It's like choosing to drink bleach or Drano. Neither is really good for you, and it is going to hurt either way, but there's enough of a difference in degree to be worth noting.
flop-shank
US Veteran
Sounds like you've been watching too many Glen Close movies.
GF is spot on! Long ago I made the vow I would not die on my knees...or begging. It was a personal choice...with consideration for The Onion FieldThe Onion Field
All said, I will draw on a bad guy(s) contingent upon the scenario.
Be safe.
GatorFarmer
Member
Originally posted by flop-shank:
Sounds like you've been watching too many Glen Close movies.
The one time I violated my usual dating rules (escape routes, safety calls, never let someone know where I live, et al), it didn't go well. Trust me on that. Remember the Bugs Bunny cartoons where the monster holds Bugs down, rubs him the wrong way, and says something about petting him, and naming him George? Yeah. It was like that. Only more traumatic.
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