Privatization of military
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500SNW
Member
Normally I have problems with the VICE tv channel...but I think this is a pretty decent documentary on private armies.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaSD8oFBZE[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LaSD8oFBZE[/ame]
Norm Augustine, CEO of Martin Marietta, in a preface to a book on the aerospace industry, commented, to paraphrase, "It's the Military Industrial Complex in times of peace, but the Arsenal of Democracy in wartime."
Sort of like Kipling's "Tommy."
...For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' ``Chuck him out, the brute!''
But it's ``Saviour of 'is country,'' when the guns begin to shoot...
Sort of like Kipling's "Tommy."
...For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' ``Chuck him out, the brute!''
But it's ``Saviour of 'is country,'' when the guns begin to shoot...
nachogrande
Member
"IT WORKS FOR ME".
SAYS Dick Chenney.
SAYS Dick Chenney.
I voluntarily enlisted in 1969, right out of high school, and I can definitely say that my experience in the service was a very positive impact on my life. I didn't do well in high school, not because of aptitude, but because of attitude. I started college immediately on my discharge, and I was on the Dean's Honor Roll every semester until I graduated.
I think everyone should be required to serve their country...if not in the military, in some capacity such as the Peace Corps or other projects to benefit America and Americans.
I also think that "limited engagements" are terrible. If we are going to fight, then we should fight to win with all our might, or stay home.
I think everyone should be required to serve their country...if not in the military, in some capacity such as the Peace Corps or other projects to benefit America and Americans.
I also think that "limited engagements" are terrible. If we are going to fight, then we should fight to win with all our might, or stay home.
I am a firm believer that able-minded and able-bodied citizens of the U.S.A. owe this country some sort of service/self sacrifice. Be it military, or something of the sorts of the Peace Corps, or even volunteering to be a firefighter, or a cyber crime fighter....... something.
As for mercenaries, I condone it only if the 'need' by far outweighs the available manpower. Think about it..... where do many of our mercenaries come from in the first place....... many are well trained American military vets. Paying professionals to fight our wars is not my cup-o-tea. As said above, let's get some skin in the game, and maybe we will think twice about our actions and involvements.....
As for mercenaries, I condone it only if the 'need' by far outweighs the available manpower. Think about it..... where do many of our mercenaries come from in the first place....... many are well trained American military vets. Paying professionals to fight our wars is not my cup-o-tea. As said above, let's get some skin in the game, and maybe we will think twice about our actions and involvements.....
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That's very good. Thanks! Well worth 15 minutes to watch.
I think there is a difference between providing personal security, bodyguard work, and spearheading a government, or political faction's, military. But the boundaries, the documentary short points out, easily get fuzzy
E.g., as one of the former mercenaries notes, there is a very fine line between acting defensively and acting offensively. (He comments that any experienced soldier, hired to act defensively, is still gonna think, "Rather than sitting here waiting for those guys to come shoot us, let's get out there and shoot them first.")
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medic15al
Member
A mandatory service w/ training in the Police, Fire, or Emergency Medical Services w/ option to make a career of it if wanted. Add the same benefits of retirement, medical, and education as the military. This will help with manpower shortage in the nation. This does include military service as well.
A useful byproduct of the draft was that many politicians actually had some experience in the military, and it served them well in crafting laws and policies for the most part, with a few noticeable exceptions - people who could not empty **** from a boot even if the instructions were written on the sole.
Today, politicians who have served in the military are few and far between, resulting, with a few notable good exceptions, in many who have disdain for the military and ignore the incredible sacrifices of those who have pledged their lives, if necessary, for our country.
Nope - paid substitutes for actual servicemen and women are also, in most cases, poor substitutes. The incentives are far different.
John
Today, politicians who have served in the military are few and far between, resulting, with a few notable good exceptions, in many who have disdain for the military and ignore the incredible sacrifices of those who have pledged their lives, if necessary, for our country.
Nope - paid substitutes for actual servicemen and women are also, in most cases, poor substitutes. The incentives are far different.
John
BLACKHAWKNJ
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The Draft Era Army I served in 1967-1971-and I was an RA-left a LOT to be desired. It was badly led, badly managed, badly administered and poorly trained, the decision to fight Vietnam by expanding the active military and not activating the reserves created career opportunities for all sorts of borderline, marginal and inadequate people, and remember, we do not have a professional military, we have a CAREER one.
This is something we have to think about. I suspect only people who have "Seen The Elephant" will be accepted, no room for wannabes, wish they'd beens and pretend they ares. Since these would not be government employees there are questions as to who pays for their medical care, their long term injuries-disabilities ? Discipline ? I like the scene in "The Wild Geese" where the Sergeant Major tells them:
"There's no [expletive deleted] Queen's regulations here !"
This is something we have to think about. I suspect only people who have "Seen The Elephant" will be accepted, no room for wannabes, wish they'd beens and pretend they ares. Since these would not be government employees there are questions as to who pays for their medical care, their long term injuries-disabilities ? Discipline ? I like the scene in "The Wild Geese" where the Sergeant Major tells them:
"There's no [expletive deleted] Queen's regulations here !"
hostler
Member
I'm a vet and I'm OK with privatization.
When I was in the military I volunteered, I entered into a contract and I got paid, my employer was the United States.
Not really much difference between being in the military and working directly for the government, or working for a government contractor short of the benefits, retirement and such.
The US military should not be doing police actions and peace keeping. Our military is great at going in and kicking *** but when left in theater to clean up, they usually drop the ball and get a lot of people killed.
When I was in the military I volunteered, I entered into a contract and I got paid, my employer was the United States.
Not really much difference between being in the military and working directly for the government, or working for a government contractor short of the benefits, retirement and such.
The US military should not be doing police actions and peace keeping. Our military is great at going in and kicking *** but when left in theater to clean up, they usually drop the ball and get a lot of people killed.
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amazingflapjack
US Veteran
Firesticks
Member
All I have to do is step back and look at the greedy mess corporations are throughout the world including the USA and it doesn't take a genius mind to figure out exactly how bad an idea it is. They are beholden to the profit and not a citizens or a nation in ANY stretch of the imagination.
I'm not worried about mercs being used to fight foreign wars, I'm worried about our government using mercs against American citizens as used after Hurricane Katrina.
I think that if there every were a time where the .gov was going to say confiscate firearms, it's not the police or the US military that's going to to kick in the door, it's likely going to be a merc. And unlike LE and US military they don't have a an oath to honor, but the highest bidder and no accountability.
History has shown that the greatest threat to the individual citizen is their own government. I don't trust our government.
If people want to get paid for fighting and dying by a non government entity in foreign lands, good for them!
I think that if there every were a time where the .gov was going to say confiscate firearms, it's not the police or the US military that's going to to kick in the door, it's likely going to be a merc. And unlike LE and US military they don't have a an oath to honor, but the highest bidder and no accountability.
History has shown that the greatest threat to the individual citizen is their own government. I don't trust our government.
If people want to get paid for fighting and dying by a non government entity in foreign lands, good for them!
Vulcan Bob
Member
Didn't work so well for the Roman Empire.
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
When ever someone talks about using mercenaries, I can't help but think of Roland, the Headless Thompson gunner song by Warren Zevon. We should all remember that mercs fight for pay and the life-style and could easily switch sides for more money.
I was drafted after college graduation because I was directionless and broke. My oldest younger brother enlisted in the Air Force soon after. Neither of us got sent to Nam. I well remember tending bar at the officers club and hearing the lifers talk about getting to Nam in a safe posting to get their ticket punched for promotions.
As far as universal draft: 1) too many draftees to utilize all and train them; 2) I am very aware of the fact that a large percent of possible draftees either could not pass physicals or would wash out in basic. I am personally acquainted with a young pro shooter who enlisted in the Army because he wanted to be on the USAMU team. He flunked out of basic in two weeks.
I am aware of European countries that have so-called universal military service, usually one year. I have seen some of these so-called soldiers on duty on Caribbean islands sloppily dressed and just goofing around.
I don't pretend to know The Answer but I'm clear there is no simple panacea.
I was drafted after college graduation because I was directionless and broke. My oldest younger brother enlisted in the Air Force soon after. Neither of us got sent to Nam. I well remember tending bar at the officers club and hearing the lifers talk about getting to Nam in a safe posting to get their ticket punched for promotions.
As far as universal draft: 1) too many draftees to utilize all and train them; 2) I am very aware of the fact that a large percent of possible draftees either could not pass physicals or would wash out in basic. I am personally acquainted with a young pro shooter who enlisted in the Army because he wanted to be on the USAMU team. He flunked out of basic in two weeks.
I am aware of European countries that have so-called universal military service, usually one year. I have seen some of these so-called soldiers on duty on Caribbean islands sloppily dressed and just goofing around.
I don't pretend to know The Answer but I'm clear there is no simple panacea.
500SNW
Member
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
As usual these days, because it's so much fun to take a stand, people make this an "either ... or ..." proposition when it should really be a question of "how much" and "for which purposes".
There are also two questions that are getting mixed up: a publicly versus a privately run military is the first issue, and whether a publicly run military should consist entirely of volunteer professionals or partly of drafted citizens is a different one.
The other option, an ideal of some of the Founding Fathers who mistrusted standing armies of any kind and envisioned a militia system where in case of war every citizen shows up with a rifle, is somewhat impractical in the age of aircraft carriers, nuclear missiles, and space war.
So here's my take on the question actually raised by the OP:
There is nothing wrong with using contractors for support functions, including armed work, like security, especially in countries where the US military is deployed as a tool of US foreign policy, not as a matter of immediate defense of the homeland. But as a matter of principle, war-fighting is a state function, should be conducted by national military personnel sworn to loyalty to the Constitution, and should be under exclusive control and command of the national military.
It was considered an enormous step forward in Western civilization when the pillaging mercenary armies responsible for the random slaughter of the 30-Year's-War were replaced by the professional national armies of rulers like Frederick the Great in the 18th century. No reason at all to regress from that.
There are also two questions that are getting mixed up: a publicly versus a privately run military is the first issue, and whether a publicly run military should consist entirely of volunteer professionals or partly of drafted citizens is a different one.
The other option, an ideal of some of the Founding Fathers who mistrusted standing armies of any kind and envisioned a militia system where in case of war every citizen shows up with a rifle, is somewhat impractical in the age of aircraft carriers, nuclear missiles, and space war.
So here's my take on the question actually raised by the OP:
There is nothing wrong with using contractors for support functions, including armed work, like security, especially in countries where the US military is deployed as a tool of US foreign policy, not as a matter of immediate defense of the homeland. But as a matter of principle, war-fighting is a state function, should be conducted by national military personnel sworn to loyalty to the Constitution, and should be under exclusive control and command of the national military.
It was considered an enormous step forward in Western civilization when the pillaging mercenary armies responsible for the random slaughter of the 30-Year's-War were replaced by the professional national armies of rulers like Frederick the Great in the 18th century. No reason at all to regress from that.
