Problem with M&P 10mm + Customer Service Nightmare

[Dave Lively]

Has anyone considered that Buffalo Bore might not actually be compatible 10mm ammo? That guy takes a lot of liberties, inventing fake +P ammo and selling 9mm rounds that won't chamber in many common weapons. He's not really a modern ammo manufacturer as much as a high volume wildcatter.

Every ammo reviewer on YouTube has a chronograph. None of them have the very expensive equipment needed to measure pressure. Velocity sells a lot of pricey 10mm ammo since most people buying 10mm handguns do so because they want the most powerful recoil operated handgun they can own.

Buffalo Bore and Underwood have a strong financial motive to produce super hot ammo. What motive would gun makers have to produce guns that will not work with SAAMI spec ammo? Its not like S&W, Glock and the others have trouble producing reliable guns in just about any caliber except 10mm.

If you look at what modifications are needed to shoot 45 Super in a gun designed for 45 ACP the changes look suspiciously like the changes often needed to shoot BuffaloBore or Underwood 10mm ammo.

Gun makers all say their guns can handle ammo loaded up to the SAAMI pressure limits. No ammo maker admits they are making over pressure ammo. Somebody is not telling the truth.

 

[hardluk1]

I know spring have been mentioned weeks ago in one of these 10mm treads . I run a 20lb glock flat wire spring in my 4.25 40sw and a 18lb spring in my wifes 4.25 core . Same for my 4" compact and I run hotter underwood loads all while it cycles with no nose dive . These pistol were not designed to run the likes of underwood or buffalo bore hotter loads and some bullet designs can give issues in m&p's tighter chamber in the 2.0 models so if you are not willing to try so see it its at least reliable with standard so called "full power " ammo then continue to whine .

One youtube mutt stated his 10mm gave some issues soon after buying and got worse quickly . Cut to the fix a video or two later after lots of whining as his master of wisdom never disassembled , cleaned well and lubed his pistol well . When he did this his problems went away . It also ran well after he changed to a heavier recoil spring and underwood ammo too . S&W has a history of running light recoil spring for the cartridge too.

I will say this has been one entertaining tread to read and to see how low the folks common sense levels can run when it comes to trouble shooting the gun and the owner .

 

[Tannhauser]

Every ammo reviewer on YouTube has a chronograph. None of them have the very expensive equipment needed to measure pressure. Velocity sells a lot of pricey 10mm ammo since most people buying 10mm handguns do so because they want the most powerful recoil operated handgun they can own.

Buffalo Bore and Underwood have a strong financial motive to produce super hot ammo. What motive would gun makers have to produce guns that will not work with SAAMI spec ammo? Its not like S&W, Glock and the others have trouble producing reliable guns in just about any caliber except 10mm.

If you look at what modifications are needed to shoot 45 Super in a gun designed for 45 ACP the changes look suspiciously like the changes often needed to shoot BuffaloBore or Underwood 10mm ammo.

Gun makers all say their guns can handle ammo loaded up to the SAAMI pressure limits. No ammo maker admits they are making over pressure ammo. Somebody is not telling the truth.

SAAMI's standards are a set of specs presented for voluntary compliance. The specs contain cartridge and chamber drawings, pressure and velocity standards, as well as measurement techniques/methodology, etc.

If a cartridge being produced meets all the SAAMI specs, then it's within SAAMI standards. If a licensed ammo manufacturer says their ammo meets SAAMI standards, then I would have every belief it does, because I'm certain saying it does and then it not actually doing so could open up all sorts of issues if there was ever a litigation case.

I think the challenge with 10mm is that what the ammo manufacturing companies has decided to be "standard" is much farther down the power curve as it relates to what is possible under the spec than most other common handgun cartridges. If all 10mm ammo that was made was much closer to what BB or Underwood puts out, then 10mm handguns would, by necessity, come from the factory able to shoot these loads without issues.

And the guns would probably be bigger, heavier and have stronger recoil springs. And would be more expensive.

But this runs up against the fact that most gun owners rarely shoot their guns, and they shoot cheap ammo.

As an engineer myself, I understand that in bringing any design into production their are tradeoffs. However, I don't think S&W did themselves any favors. Anyone who knows anything about 10mm knows about Underwood and Buffalo Bore, and S&W should have definitely known that a portion of the 10mm pistols they sold were going to have the hottest 10mm on the market run through them.

 

[Tannhauser]

I know spring have been mentiomn weeks ago in one of these 10mm treads . I run a 20lb glock flay wire spring in my 4.25 40sw and a 18lb spring in my wifes 4.25 core . Same for my 4" compact but I run hotter loads Runs nice with no nose dive . These pistol were not designed to run the likes of underwood or buffalo bore hotter loads and some bullet designs can give issues in m&p's tighter chamber in the 2.0 models so if you are not willing to try so see it its at least reliable with standard so called "full power " ammo then continue to whine .

One youtube mutt stated his 10mm gave some issues soon after buying and got worse quickly . Cut to the fix a video or two later after lots of whining as his master of wisdom never disassembled , cleaned well and lubed his pistol well . When he did this his problems went away . It also ran well after he changed to a heavier recoil spring and underwood ammo too . S&W has a history of running light recoil spring for the cartridge too.

I will say this has been one entertaining tread to read and to see how low the folks common sense levels can run when it comes to trouble shooting the gun and the owner .

I agree with you on changing the springs and, to an extent, on some of the Youtubers posting problem videos not being the most savvy shooters.

But I won't go so far as to call all the people with problems whiners. However, if someone has a M&P10 and it's giving them problems with hot 10mm AND they are not willing to try heavier recoil springs, my suggestion is to sell it and move on.

 

[Tannhauser]

Just to be clear, heavier springs may make the gun function.

My opinion is that you are getting one part to work while sacrificing the way something else works - possibly leading to battering down the road. One 1911 smith that worked for a big 1911 specialty house said that quite a few of the broken parts he saw come in for service were caused by heavy springs.

The ideal solution to this kind of issue is a comp or some way of adding mass - like a tungsten rear sight. Those actually directly influence slide velocity.

On 1911s you can also add a square firing pin stop for some mechanical delay.


Does anyone make a progressive spring for the large M&P?

I also added a Holosun 407. It weighs 1.5 Oz plus the weight of the plate, which is probably negligible.

How much mass does a Tungsten rear sight usually add? Does anyone make a suppressor height, CORE cut tungsten sight?

There may be other ways, even technically "better" ways, to control slight velocity in a handgun. But I'm telling you there are thousands of G20 shooters out there who have increased the weight of their recoil spring and their gun runs great and haven't fallen apart. Maybe this change shortens the service life. But the guns still have plenty of practical service life.

How many rounds will a 10mm handgun see?

 

[Dave Lively]

I think the challenge with 10mm is that what the ammo manufacturing companies has decided to be "standard" is much farther down the power curve as it relates to what is possible under the spec than most other common handgun cartridges. If all 10mm ammo that was made was much closer to what BB or Underwood puts out, then 10mm handguns would, by necessity, come from the factory able to shoot these loads without issues.

That may be possible but why would they do that?

I am also skeptical about what is possible for 10mm. A standard load for 40 S&W is a 180 grain bullet at 1000 fps. BB lists their heavy 180 grain JHP at 1311 fps out of a Glock 20. That's a 72% increase in muzzle energy. The pressure spec for 10mm is 37500 psi, a 7% increase over the 35,000 psi limit for 40. And the case is .1 inch longer. The remaining 65% increase in power coming from an extra .1 inch of case length seems pretty unlikely.

Buffalo Bore lists their most powerful 10mm ammo as "Heavy" and states it is safe in any gun in good condition. Which I believe. But I didn't see any claims that it stayed within the SAAMI pressure limits. I always assumed with BB "Heavy" means +P or +P+ for a cartridge that does not have a +P spec.

And the guns would probably be bigger, heavier and have stronger recoil springs. And would be more expensive.

Yes, they would. About 25 years ago I bought a HK USP in 45 ACP in small part because it was advertised as being able to shoot 45 Super out of the box. I never tested that but it seemed like a nice option to have. And it was bigger, heavier and more expensive than the other 45s I owned.

But this runs up against the fact that most gun owners rarely shoot their guns, and they shoot cheap ammo.

As an engineer myself, I understand that in bringing any design into production their are tradeoffs. However, I don't think S&W did themselves any favors. Anyone who knows anything about 10mm knows about Underwood and Buffalo Bore, and S&W should have definitely known that a portion of the 10mm pistols they sold were going to have the hottest 10mm on the market run through them.

No, they certainly didn't do themselves a favor.

I suspect some 10mm makers are starting to take the approach HK did with the USP and build guns that can handle the heavy loads from BuffaloBore and Underwood regardless of whether they are SAAMI spec or not. Nobody buys a 10mm for 15% more power than a 40 S&W.

 

[Frank Black]

Yeah, that's the BB 9mm ammo that won't even chamber in some guns because it hits the lands.
GTG?

LOL! ...

Dude, you’re so out of focus you need “Coke-bottle” glasses to see the obvious.

The reports of some of BB’s heavy HC ammo failing to feed or chamber in certain 10mm guns (typically Glock 10mms), is due to the UNcoated hard-edged, wide-nose geometry of the meplat of the particular boolit - 200grn or 220grn.

The trend among ammo-makers loading HC boolits - across all calibers - is to use a poly-costing of some type.

The coating “slicks-up” the hard-edge to ensure reliable feeding up the ramp into the chamber, and secondarily minimizes leading up of the barrel.

I handload SNS Casting’s 220grn 10mm polycoated HC FN slugs for my Glock 40 with the factory barrel. I load them over AA#9 and get just over 1200fps. They shoot great and I’ve had no issues with the factory barrel’s polygonal rifling.

 

[mark_lives_things]

I feel like this thread is starting to drift...

I heard back from S&W today. They want to swap my magazines again. I politely reminded them that I have so far experienced this problem with *6* different magazines and that it seems extremely improbable to me that trying more magazines will help, unless there has been some sort of magazine redesign.

We'll see what happens next.

 

[hardluk1]

I agree with you on changing the springs and, to an extent, on some of the Youtubers posting problem videos not being the most savvy shooters.

But I won't go so far as to call all the people with problems whiners. However, if someone has a M&P10 and it's giving them problems with hot 10mm AND they are not willing to try heavier recoil springs, my suggestion is to sell it and move on.

Sell it and move on has worked well for 4 times over the years
for me but in a different way . I've bought handguns off mad owners at a pubic forestry range that could not make then reliable . 3 of them ran fine for me after a disassembly and clean up , look over , a lube job , better ammo and different shooter . What part fixed the handguns ?? One went home for some tlc with a letter covering what I tried , ammo used and fired brass and it came back running great . All 4 are still in the family as carry or hd handguns years later .

May point was if you buy a new to the market handgun you must have the common sense to know you are a beta tester and if it's a hot seller , parts kits and mags will be in short supply very quickly .

If you have problems you have to be able to work thru the possible problems . Perhaps the owner as in lacking basic skills in prepping the firearm properly and then ammo they pick to start with . And finally maybe its the handgun but theres no use in whining about it .

Like you said sell it or trade it and move on and some one else with a different perspective may get a deal on it and get it running well .

Beta testers ! I remember when mags for several new handguns were parts kits and mags dried up very quickly for 1 year plus .

OH well , time to move on there other treads to check out .

 

[rosewood]

I have come to the conclusion it is all the FBI's fault. Those wimps had the 10mm downloaded so they could handle them and ever sense "main stream" ammo companies have continued the watered down tradition and therefore the gun manufacturers have tuned their guns to run with that weak ammo. They need to get back to the basics of the Norma specs.

Rosewood

 

[Bangler]

Was looking to get another 10mm. I have the XDM 5.25" and love it. Looked at the S&W but didn't want those stupid tall sights so I bought the GLOCK.
Sooooo glad I did!
The kind of CS you are getting is the kind you'd expect from an outfit like ATI or some other "off-shore" brand.
S&W, if you're reading this thread, FOR SHAME!!!

 

[Bangler]

Double post.

 

[RCL-09]

Was looking to get another 10mm. I have the XDM 5.25" and love it. Looked at the S&W but didn't want those stupid tall sights so I bought the GLOCK.
Sooooo glad I did!
The kind of CS you are getting is the kind you'd expect from an outfit like ATI or some other "off-shore" brand.
S&W, if you're reading this thread, FOR SHAME!!!

I really wanted a M&P10 but first availability and prices stopped me. Eventually I came across an EAA Witness in 10mm and since I really like the CZ75 style pistols I got it at a great deal.

After all of what I have read I am more than happy that I skipped the M&P10.

 

[Bangler]

I really wanted a M&P10 but first availability and prices stopped me. Eventually I came across an EAA Witness in 10mm and since I really like the CZ75 style pistols I got it at a great deal.

After all of what I have read I am more than happy that I skipped the M&P10.

That's too funny! I was eye sexing this before I got my XDM.

 

[dla]

Those are good videos illustrating frame flex in a handgun.

I’m agreeing with your thinking on frame flex. As a parallel, frame flex in Glocks modified for .460 Rowland is an issue with mags and the mag release, to the extent there are mag shims designed to limit the amount of relative motion between frame and magazine.

I think it’s feasible that the M&P frame is flexing enough under recoil from hot loads with heavy bullets that the mag catch is disengaging from the magazibe.

The key here is that the mag is being released BEFORE the slide hits the stop. If the mag was dropping due to the slide hitting the stop, most of the time the slide would still pull a round off either chambering or nose-dive jam. But the OP has said that no round gets chambered or jammed - so the mag is letting go during the first frame flex event.

My guess is that SW will release a modified mag catch (cause beefing up the frame is a mold change). Unfortunately, that mag catch is likely used in every M&P pistol, and they don't want to cause problems in their profit-makers in order to fix an outlier problem in a low-volume product.

 

[dla]

If the mag was dropped from the impact of the slide hitting its rear frame stop, why would that allow a round to feed?

Because the magazine wouldn't have time to fall far enough.

 

[mark_lives_things]

To avoid recapping everything, I'm just going to paste the e-mail I just sent to S&W CS below:

"I was able to get to the range tonight. The mag drop problem persisted with all four new magazines. I've attached video of an Elite Shooting Sports range staffer shooting the pistol and experiencing the magazine drop problem. I just wanted to make sure I had some video of a third party to show that this isn't an operator-induced issue. In addition to myself, I've now had two different range staffers have this problem, and the three of us are all firearms instructors. On that basis, I think we can safely rule out operator error.

Since we've tried 10 different magazines now, I think we can rule out magazines as the culprit as well.

I experienced the mag drop problem with 180 grain S&B JHP, 200 grain Underwood hardcast, and 220 grain Underwood hardcast. The gun did seem to handle about a dozen rounds of 175 grain Hornady Critical Duty, but, frankly, that load is only marginally more powerful than a decent .40 S&W round -- certainly not the sort of 10mm round one would choose for bear protection, handgun hunting, or any other application for which someone would select the 10mm over lesser calibers. However, I can see how it might be difficult to replicate the problem that I've been documenting if only light loads are used.

After experiencing the same problem with two M&P 10mm pistols and finding several instances online of other users experiencing the same and similar problems, my hunch is that this pistol design was not sufficiently tested and proven with heavier loads. Obviously, this is a significant problem, since there's literally no reason to choose 10mm for jobs that 9mm or .40 S&W could accomplish. A 10mm pistol that can't handle heavier loads isn't much use to me or anyone else: if you don't actually need much energy on target, 9mm is obviously a more cost-effective choice. I certainly wouldn't have bought this pistol if it had been advertised to only function with light bullets and/or low-energy loads, but it appears that a caveat like that might be necessary.

I appreciate the attention you've given to the problem I've experienced. Since December, I've tried everything I can think of to resolve it. I've expended an inordinate amount of time and ammunition trying to make things work. At this point, I just want to get my money back."

 

[m&p2.0fdethumbsafety]

you don't need 10mm for bear or moose protection, you just need to put more shots on target. most modern guns have 15-17 round, so there's no problem with that



[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM2ifggeH0Q[/ame]


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h1XlsskYmY[/ame]



[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDb2u2Exk0Q[/ame]

 

[Anton Chigurh]

To avoid recapping everything, I'm just going to paste the e-mail I just sent to S&W CS below:

"I was able to get to the range tonight. The mag drop problem persisted with all four new magazines. I've attached video of an Elite Shooting Sports range staffer shooting the pistol and experiencing the magazine drop problem. I just wanted to make sure I had some video of a third party to show that this isn't an operator-induced issue. In addition to myself, I've now had two different range staffers have this problem, and the three of us are all firearms instructors. On that basis, I think we can safely rule out operator error.

Since we've tried 10 different magazines now, I think we can rule out magazines as the culprit as well.

I experienced the mag drop problem with 180 grain S&B JHP, 200 grain Underwood hardcast, and 220 grain Underwood hardcast. The gun did seem to handle about a dozen rounds of 175 grain Hornady Critical Duty, but, frankly, that load is only marginally more powerful than a decent .40 S&W round -- certainly not the sort of 10mm round one would choose for bear protection, handgun hunting, or any other application for which someone would select the 10mm over lesser calibers. However, I can see how it might be difficult to replicate the problem that I've been documenting if only light loads are used.

After experiencing the same problem with two M&P 10mm pistols and finding several instances online of other users experiencing the same and similar problems, my hunch is that this pistol design was not sufficiently tested and proven with heavier loads. Obviously, this is a significant problem, since there's literally no reason to choose 10mm for jobs that 9mm or .40 S&W could accomplish. A 10mm pistol that can't handle heavier loads isn't much use to me or anyone else: if you don't actually need much energy on target, 9mm is obviously a more cost-effective choice. I certainly wouldn't have bought this pistol if it had been advertised to only function with light bullets and/or low-energy loads, but it appears that a caveat like that might be necessary.

I appreciate the attention you've given to the problem I've experienced. Since December, I've tried everything I can think of to resolve it. I've expended an inordinate amount of time and ammunition trying to make things work. At this point, I just want to get my money back."

I had one of the early M&P 2.0 units, a 5" model that didn't feed for beans. Did the back and forth with the same responses as yours. Finally just traded the thing for one of the Compacts when they came out, and it ran, and runs, perfectly.
Sometimes you just get a lemon.

 

[mark_lives_things]

Sometimes you just get a lemon.

This is the replacement/second pistol. Unfortunately, that suggests a more fundamental design problem, not merely one defective pistol.