Put a yardstick under your arm and back up to a wall

There's a lot to learn. But only if you look in the right place.

Agreed :)

Abstract of link:
"This article reviews published criticisms of several ballistic pressure wave experiments authored by Suneson et al., the Marshall and Sanow "one shot stop" data set, and the Strasbourg goat tests. These published criticisms contain numerous logical and rhetorical fallacies, are generally exaggerated, and fail to convincingly support the overly broad conclusions they contain."

Review of criticisms of ballistic pressure wave experiments, the Strasbourg goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow data (PDF Download Available)
 
Personally I carry 357cal S&W revolvers. The first two chambers to roll into battery are loaded with Speer's 135gr short barrel load for 38+P. The next 3 or 4 shots are Remington's 158gr load. I hope to never need it, but I figure if I ever do need more than 2 shots I probable need the extra penetration the mags have to offer. The only threats I have ever encountered are feral hogs, it is amazing what a single 38 can do to a good sized pig.
 
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Agreed :)

Abstract of link:
"This article reviews published criticisms of several ballistic pressure wave experiments authored by Suneson et al., the Marshall and Sanow "one shot stop" data set, and the Strasbourg goat tests. These published criticisms contain numerous logical and rhetorical fallacies, are generally exaggerated, and fail to convincingly support the overly broad conclusions they contain."

Review of criticisms of ballistic pressure wave experiments, the Strasbourg goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow data (PDF Download Available)

Indeed, this article makes some valid points, however many of them are semantic and are about the tone of the criticism's and the wrong attitude being presented in scientific literature. Much of the article does take time to tear apart the logical fallacies Fackler used, and indeed he uses many, but the article does not address Fackler's valid criticism's of the tests provided. The article does point out negative points in Fackler's work, but avoids actually refuting his points or truly proving the theories that were attacked. It's title is accurate, and it does its job well, but don't take it as proof that Fackler is wrong and everything criticized is right. Exposing a few errors in logic and writing does not refute the facts of the points made.

The effect of shock stopping an attack has some scientific validity, but let's remember that in Suneson the distal hits were made with a high power, high velocity projectile, not a handgun, which means that effects recorded are relevant to projectiles of that nature, and may not be relevant, or as relevant, to lower velocity, lower power handgun projectiles. The pigs being anesthetized meant we could not determine if the distal effects would have incapacitated the pigs, the study only proves that there was distant damage from distal hit trauma. This study, and others like it, may prove there are distant effects from gun shot wounds, but cannot prove A. that it is a mechanism for stopping attacks and B. that it is a reliable and often repeated mechanism of stopping an attack.

Stasbourg tests had some interesting information about theory of pressure and incapacitation, however the tests also did little to show individual handgun rounds as being more or less effective, only having relevance in the general theory of biology and incapacitation. Strasbourg might help you decide which combat handgun load you want to kill goats by shooting the same exact way, but otherwise does not prove much on individual calibers, on human beings, with different angles and shots through different tissues at different depths. Even the pressure and immediate incapacitation correlation proves that even if this effect can cause incapacitation, it is not a reliable and readily reproducable means of stopping an attack. If the phenomona isn't extremely common, and cannot be relied upon to stop an attack, it is of very little use to us.

The criticisms of Fackler's criticism of M&S completely missed the most important part, that shots through the thoracic cavity is such a wide and open spectrum with such wild diversity of quality of shots that the category and resultant statistics are completely worthless. M&S make no difference between a shot straight through the heart of a 110 pound woman and a shot through the side of a 300 pound man's intestinal loop, meaning the most important factor, bullet path and tissues affected, is left out. This does not leave us with statistics that have strong enough parameters to be useful in any way, more important factors than the bullet choice and load are left in, ruining any useful conclusions on the cartridge itself.

M&S don't list why bullets are effective, and also don't list why they failed. If a certain load failed to penetrate deep enough to stop an attack, like the 115 grain 9mm bullet Dove fired during the Miami shootout, it is not included, if a .32 S&W bullet only killed a man fright of being shot gave him a heart attack, it does not list it. We are given zero context to the reason why rounds failed or succeeded, giving us no insight as to what is effective and why. We do not understand the mechanisms and mechanics of why the rounds did what they did, so we cannot determine if the bullet succeeded, if it failed, why, ect., meaning conclusions cannot prove if the round is really good or not, wither it has a failure rate, or under what circumstances it fails or succeeds, ect.

S&W is a load of poor quality bauxite when we need aluminum.

Certainly, your article did list some very real problems with Fackler's writing, but certainly does not discredit his critical responses, nor proved the works he criticized. Saying that someone's work should be discarded outright and all those he opposes are automatically correct is, in itself, a massive logical fallacy.

tl;dr Tissue crushing, blood pressure affects, blood loss, central direct central nervous system hits, are all proven 100% reliable mechanisms' for stopping an attack. Indeed, those things are universal, and if they can be affected, will always work, reliably, and loads designed to work those ends will always work if used correctly. Yes, Suneson and Strasbourg may have made insight into certain theories of distal shock being valid, but they also have never proved that we, in the real world, can rely upon those affects to stop attackers, because they have not been proven to be reliable and 100% reproducable. Indeed, a bullet actually crushing a kidney will have predictable and reproducable affects, and will always make those affects, whereas the traumatic shock stoppages suggested in the studies done are more or less flukes, cannot be predicted, may not happen and give us any advantage, and shifting our bullet and load designs to an affect we may not even get is foolish.

We load out for the stoppages we can guarantee, not for special critical affects that are sporadic and may not be useful.
 
That seem's find IF your target is standing sideways......:)

Problem number one is that targets rarely "stand" anywhere for very long when in the middle of a gunfight - at least if they do not want to get dead in a hurry.

That said, a side shot might be the only shot you get, or your target might react and start to turn before you get your shot off, or _____ (fill in your scenario here).

You need only read the detailed account of the Miami shootout to see an example where a cartridge designed for penetration of less than the current standard failed, after going through the target's arm, to make it to the heart.
 
The criticisms of Fackler's criticism of M&S completely missed the most important part, that shots through the thoracic cavity is such a wide and open spectrum with such wild diversity of quality of shots that the category and resultant statistics are completely worthless.

I'd say criticizing the variability in effects between different shots through different human torsos, with the unstated implication that shooting a block of gelatin is a better measure of how humans respond to being shot, is a bit of a stretch. Just a wee tad!

Saying that someone's work should be discarded outright and all those he opposes are automatically correct is, in itself, a massive logical fallacy.

Someone needs to inform the good doctor. ;)

Bottom line, we aren't going to start lining people up to conduct ballistic research, the same way we don't force women to drink alcohol during pregnancy to investigate Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. In situations where ethics, law and/or morals prohibit classic dependent/independent variable research design, the best data comes from examination of existing documented cases (eg, look at kids who show symptoms of FAS, and learn more about the condition).

That's what M&S did.

I don't understand the high emotion demonstrated by their critics. Heck, M&S even tried to link their findings in to gelatin effects--taking the best street performers and trying to see what commonality they might demonstrate in gelatin--calibrating gelatin effects to street performance, if you will. They wanted to find the gelatin performance profile(s) for street-successful rounds--it would enable rapid and convenient assessment of newly introduced rounds, without waiting for collection of data from hundreds of shootings.
 
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LOL, I never timed it but it worked pretty good for me..:)

You don't need two holes to divert blood from its intended destination in the body. Whether the blood is leaking into the thoracic cavity or onto the ground makes no difference as the blood is not going to where it is needed thereby leading to suffocation by exsanguination.

Two holes may make tracking a wounded deer easier to track, but it doesn't make it slow down or die any sooner.
 
The scientific method requires us to be able to have controls and variables within parameters so we can try to isolate causes and effects. Being able to compare women who drink during pregnancy vs. those that don't is black and white, and the rates of problems between the two are stark and easily contrasted, plus we have further mechanical knowledge of what alcohol does during pregnancy. Beyond that, we have in the past tested things on real people, and still use animals for controlled experiments, science does not just simply stack piles of statistics together and go " good enough, folks!". Good science doesn't just rely on labs full of gel blocks, they actually dissect anecdotes for their individual results, and not lomp them together in sloppy piles of statistics. Statistics aren't science, correlation isn't proof, they are both just indicators to where we should research next, to create theories to be further tested, to give us direction, they are not weight themselves.

M&S's one shot stop percentages are the very definition of junk science. The reason they are so passionately torn to bits and pieces is because the uninformed are so often confused and misled by such hype trash masquerading as science. M&S are fine examples of those who put together shoddy work to sell books, and lead to lies and myths that propagate for decades on end. Such work is no different than the reports we kept hearing back in the day about how junk science was "proving" that eggs were going to kill you, as well as popcorn butter, butter, salt, beef, ect., all of it sloppy statistical correlation based nonsense that later fell apart under real scrutiny. Bad science is bad science, and it should all be called out.

one has to wonder, Mr. Steve912, your dedication to defend the debunked work of M&S.

This isn't about Fackler vs. M&S, this isn't about gel tests and labs being the only authority, it isn't saying that real life results aren't the most important, you are dancing around the fact that M&S's statistics are so poorly sorted and their parameters so broad that their statistics are completely and utterly worthless. Again I'll direct you to the fact that the shots through the thoracic cavity as a limitation is too broad, that they make no distinction to actual shot placement and bullet path through the cavity, that that the reasons for the failure and success of the rounds can't be accurately attributed to the round itself, making any conclusions of the effectiveness of those rounds worthless.

M&S didn't give us accurate representations of effectiveness of cartridges, they just gave us a pile of extremely raw and useless statistics, then drew conclusions as they saw fit. They are proof of nothing.
 
The scientific method requires us to be able to have controls and variables within parameters so we can try to isolate causes and effects. Being able to compare women who drink during pregnancy vs. those that don't is black and white, and the rates of problems between the two are stark and easily contrasted,


As I explained above, ethics & morals preclude a classic, scientific, dependent variable/independent variable research design; ergo, you examine where the events have occurred "in life".

At any rate, I'm bowing out here, in interest of maintaining access to the board. ;)
 
Marshall & Sanow made an attempt to quantify what is essentially unquantifiable. I have never believed they deliberately attempted to deceive anyone. I do believe that what they attempted to do flew directly in the face of those who have steadfastly clung to their own perspectives based not so much on scientific methodology as on decades of mythology. Everyone who is against what their data conveys is almost always a proponent of the Fackler school of thought which is simply too ironic to merely dismiss. It's basically another version of the climate change argument with proponents dug in on either side.

In conclusion, I would only point someone to the data garnered by the IL State Police in the years that they used the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ and the results they had as posted here by a retired Capt. of said dept. The conclusion is inescapable.
 
Pistol rounds suck. Some suck less. If you expect a problem and can't be elsewhere, the correct answer is a rifle. Using a handgun, expect to have to shoot the offender a bunch of times as fast physically possible to have physical incapacitation. One or two and assess is ... dumb. Even with a rifle, it is dumb. Unless one gets a solid hit on the CNS, physical incapacitation will be a result of blood loss - which can take seconds to minutes, during which the offender may well be able to keep fighting.

The first real problem to solve is placement, which depends on knowledge of anatomy sufficient to place bullets in such a manner as to do as much damage as possible to the offender. In general, draw lines connecting the nipples on the bottom and sides, and more or less a parallel line on the top adjacent to the notch at the bottom of the throat. The vast majority of the vitals that should be hit are in there. Note that there are a lot of bony structures protecting those vitals. This is one of the reasons that penetration is important.

Also, it is foreseeable that one could have to shoot from the side, which may mean through an arm. A friend's well documented OIS was that way - suspect turned toward him raising the gun when ordered to drop it, and of course if he had waited until actually faced, it would have been too late. Several of the rounds hit from the side. A person in reasonable shape will be thicker side to side than from to back, and that does not even include the possible need to penetrate the arm first. (Note after the Garner decision, which is somewhat flawed in its foundation, LE may be more restricted in shooting fleeing felons than civilians are, depending on how one's state laws were amended after Garner and Graham. Remember that those are 4th amendment civil decisions, and thus cannot apply to civilians directly.

The other piece of placement is getting the bullets where they need to be. This is a function of training, ergonomics, and the like. There are people who can shoot well enough with a hot .44 Magnum load to do that under pressure and at the necessary speed. Most of us are not that big or well trained. I've qualified with hot .41 magnum loads, but that does not make them a good choice. I'm most proficient with 9mm, even +P+; .38 special SWC at standard or slightly above standard pressure, etc. Solid hits with those will do far more than missing with everything but the muzzle blast from a hot magnum. Related, and as pointed out above: over-penetration, to the extent that it is even an issue (see below) is not near as problematic as missing. Missing is a real BFD.

The myths about over-penetration came from people without legal training, as did many myths about shooting liability. I hear things from cops, especially management level cops, that are so stupid I want to scream. They have no idea what the law is and make up stuff based on rumors from friends who also know nothing. First, if a round penetrates the body, it should have a lot less energy. It is probably still dangerous, but less so. (If one is a dolt and carries ball instead of appropriate service ammo, this can be worse, and the negligence in carrying ball or super hot SWCs is a different problem because they are not service ammo.) In crude terms, the doctrine of "transferred intent", which can increase criminal exposure for someone who hits "B" when shooting unlawfully at "A", provides at least some protection when a lawful use of force against "A" unfortunately injures "B". This is not a topic for a short response here, but one I would be looking at if in a position to litigate a shooting. Note that the vitality and applicability of the doctrine will also vary from state to state. I am giving a simplified answer to a complex issue. Don't rely on it.

Ballistic gelatin testing is an effort to predict in a consistent manner the terminal ballistic behavior of projectiles. It cannot be perfect. However, too many agencies that have chosen service ammo based on that testing have been successful in shootings to ignore it. The single best test is the 4 layer denim, as it seems to best reflect the real world. Remember that the testing came about in part because of the FBI shootout 30 years ago, and that ammo performance is far better because of it.
 
The nearly ad hominem attacks on M&S, while IMO are not legit on a personal basis, make a lot of sense logically. These guys like to play with arithmetic and statistics, while having little knowledge of their theoretical basis. Their so-called statistics are just a bunch of cherry-picked incidents. Any real statistician who reads their books knows this, and anyone who has followed their gun-rag articles for years (as I have) stands a good chance of having noticed that they have continued cherry-picking even after publication.

While I have no reason to doubt their basic honesty, and, in fact, don't, their methodology and conclusions are junk. 95% one-shot stops? Are you ****ing ****ting me?
 
The nearly ad hominem attacks on M&S, while IMO are not legit on a personal basis, make a lot of sense logically. These guys like to play with arithmetic and statistics, while having little knowledge of their theoretical basis. Their so-called statistics are just a bunch of cherry-picked incidents. Any real statistician who reads their books knows this, and anyone who has followed their gun-rag articles for years (as I have) stands a good chance of having noticed that they have continued cherry-picking even after publication.

While I have no reason to doubt their basic honesty, and, in fact, don't, their methodology and conclusions are junk. 95% one-shot stops? Are you ****ing ****ting me?

You're making a grave error in that their GOAL was to research one shot stops and this mandated "cherry picking" as so few shootings are one shot or one "solid hit" affairs. An ex post facto conclusion isn't going to be the same for say someone shot five times with a 12 ga. as opposed to someone shot one time COM with a .38. They had to glean what available incident reports were available to come up with a reasonable amount of those. Their intent was not to show multiple hit results as those are difficult to quantify unless the person shot wasn't stopped whereas we then can deduce that whatever was used didn't work that particular time.

Unfortunately, there were/are too many people who are unable to even consider, let alone believe, that large heavy bullets aren't the Hammer of Thor they had always believed. No amount of concrete scientific data will ever change their belief system. They are far too emotionally "invested" to admit they may have been wrong.
 
Marshall & Sanow made an attempt to quantify what is essentially unquantifiable. I have never believed they deliberately attempted to deceive anyone. I do believe that what they attempted to do flew directly in the face of those who have steadfastly clung to their own perspectives based not so much on scientific methodology as on decades of mythology. Everyone who is against what their data conveys is almost always a proponent of the Fackler school of thought which is simply too ironic to merely dismiss. It's basically another version of the climate change argument with proponents dug in on either side.
Why is it ironic that those against M&S are usually proponents of the Fackler school of thought?

Even if M&S are perfectly good hearted and honest their methodology and data collection practices are fundamentally broken and their results are meaningless. Junk science can easily be misleading and deceiving without intent on the part of the creators.
 
Fackler's supporter's and those in terminal ballistics study never said the slow heavy bullets are hammers of Thor, but the light fast handgun bullet kids still think their "fast" (actually slow) 1,400 fps 115 grain bullets are thunderbolts from Zeus that magically create as much hydrostatic shock as a 30-06. No amount of proper science and proof can convince the people who were fooled by the bad science of the 70's-80's into magical thinking that handguns killed by shock alone, or primarily, will ever want their delusions of their ultra powerful standard power handguns taken from them. They were indocrinated with a lie, a comforting lie, and they would still rather hold on to that bad science and that lie against all the evidence saying otherwise.

These arguments tend to wax the same more and more as they go on, junk science like M&S are held onto because its the only thing that proves what the light fast handgun bulleters WANT to believe, and you still get folks bringing up the 20% gel tests and the bad conclusions of shock that were their basis for effectiveness, shown in the long run to be the wrong conclusions and those tests rendered obsolete and inacurate.

When the gel tests told them what they wanted to hear, they said they were unarguable truth. When they went against them, they are "just blocks of jello". When real ballistic science is talked about, instead they defer to wild anecdotes and worthless aggregate statistics. No, it isn't people bldinly holding onto big heavy bullets, there is a real cult of people still thinking tehir 9mm +p+ are magic.
 
Properly interpreted, calibrated gel results are useful in facilitating optimum bullet design and making a suitable choice of rounds for self-defense. However, the notion that 12" penetration in gel assures adequate penetration in self-defense situations (even without barriers) is baseless.
On the other hand, ambiguous anecdotal "findings," like those of M&S and Ellifritz for example, are misleading and essentially worthless. Trying to oversimplify a very complex subject by employing faulty methodology inevitably leads to faulty conclusions.
 

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