Quality Control? Here's how I feel...

[DeadWhiteGoose]

Ok so, I have a 686+ Pro Series. It is my first revolver/handgun and I am new to shooting. If you're a veteran to buying quality firearms, tell me how you would have felt. My barrel is slightly canted. My thumbpiece nut(which I've already replaced with a new nut S&W sent me) is loose and needs loc tite. And, my strain screw came loose after 300 rounds to the point of not firing. It also wasn't loc tited. Is it just because I'm a new gun owner that I didn't send it back or am I just over analyzing it? I mean, it was $850...

 

[s&wchad]

Sometimes, the vast amount of information available on the internet is a curse. VERY few things in life are “perfect”, especially if you look close enough. I’ve read dozens of rants on the forum about canted barrels and relatively minor cosmetic imperfections. While I’m sure Smith & Wesson could improve on these points, I doubt they couldn’t do it at a price customers would be willing to pay. In today’s world, $850 for a high end revolver (made in the USA) isn’t out of line. Back in the late 1960’s, a top end S&W cost about $125 and those Bangor Punta guns were far from perfect. If you made $18K a year back then, you were rolling in the dough! At the time, gasoline was selling for $0.35 per gallon and a nice suburban house was $20-30K. If revolvers kept inflationary pace, they’d cost $1,250 or more.

I do have some experience collecting and shooting guns. I own more than I care to admit and countless others have passed thru my hands. Most that I’ve kept are relatively high condition American sporting arms and I can find flaws and imperfections with virtually all of them. If I focused on the flaws, I wouldn’t enjoy owning them.

Functional issues are another story; I don’t like guns that don’t work properly. If a gun can’t be sighted in, that’s a problem. If it constantly malfunctions or is inaccurate, that’s a problem too. Regarding your thumbpiece nut, I would never send it in for that and removable Loctite would be a last resort. I would clean both sets of threads with alcohol and snug the nut with a good quality properly fitting gunsmith screwdriver. I've learned to inspect and snug screws as a regular part of my cleaning and maintenance procedures.


Just an FYI, I was product design engineer for a manufacturing company (not S&W) and I'm happily married!

 

[stantheman86]

I just posted on another thread about this, and anything mass produced is not going to be perfect.

If we demanded absolute hand fitted perfection, a new 686 would cost $2,000+. I agree a new gun should work 100% and it should have the durabilty we expect from a new S&W, but I see more and more threads about slightly canted barrels and new stainless guns with a little machining mark or a scratch........it happens, it's the nature of manufacturing. My $35,000 Dodge Magnum had a defective part in the transmission, and luckily it was covered under the warranty......

 

[18DAI]

I just buy pre 2001 S&W revolvers. No canted barrels or any of the other symptoms of poor quality control and cost cutting measures.

And they don't cost anywhere near $2000 either! Regards 18DAI.

 

[6mmman]

My advice is to stop buying their substandard product. They have had much trouble building the Walther ppk, a 1931 design. The double action revolver is much older than that. If they cant get it right they dont need our hard earned money.
Colt went through this some years ago. I bought a 1991 Commander in 1997 and it was the worst pistol I have ever owned. I just bought a new one to get the "100 Years of Service" rollmark and I must say it is an excellant pistol! Smith may have to feel the pinch of hard times like Colt did before they get it!!!

 

[Kelly Green]

I own several S&W guns but I won’t buy a S&W made after May of 2001. In 2001 Saf-T-Hammer bought S&W from Tomkins. The quality of Saf-T-Hammer guns are not impressive. In 2002 Saf-T-Hammer changed its name to Smith & Wesson Holding Corp. but they didn’t change the way they made their guns.

 

[Jeff45]

Sometimes, the vast amount of information available on the internet is a curse. VERY few things in life are “perfect”, especially if you look close enough. I’ve read dozens of rants on the forum about canted barrels and relatively minor cosmetic imperfections. While I’m sure Smith & Wesson could improve on these points, I doubt they couldn’t do it at a price customers would be willing to pay. In today’s world, $850 for a high end revolver (made in the USA) isn’t out of line. Back in the late 1960’s, a top end S&W cost about $125 and those Bangor Punta guns were far from perfect. If you made $18K a year back then, you were rolling in the dough! At the time, gasoline was selling for $0.35 per gallon and a nice suburban house was $20-30K. If revolvers kept inflationary pace, they’d cost $1,250 or more.

I do have some experience collecting and shooting guns. I own more than I care to admit and countless others have passed thru my hands. Most that I’ve kept are relatively high condition American sporting arms and I can find flaws and imperfections with virtually all of them. If I focused on the flaws, I wouldn’t enjoy owning them.

Functional issues are another story; I don’t like guns that don’t work properly. If a gun can’t be sighted in, that’s a problem. If it constantly malfunctions or is inaccurate, that’s a problem too. Regarding your thumbpiece nut, I would never send it in for that and removable Loctite would be a last resort. I would clean both sets of threads with alcohol and snug the nut with a good quality properly fitting gunsmith screwdriver. I've learned to inspect and snug screws as a regular part of my cleaning and maintenance procedures.


Just an FYI, I was product design engineer for a manufacturing company (not S&W) and I'm happily married!

Excellent post. We need to keep in perspective the manufacturer is not perfect and must build a product that will sell to enough people to make a profit. S&W has a pretty good track record through multiple owners and the ever changing gun laws. By all means keep their feet to the fire and let S&W know if something is wrong; they can correct the problems and we will get better firearms.

 

[Titegroups]

S&W is in the financial crapper right now, you find cost cutting on items being produced under these circumstances so QC is a little looser.

 

[Camster]

S&W is in the financial crapper right now, you find cost cutting on items being produced under these circumstances so QC is a little looser.

The world and no doubt S&W was in that same place in the 1930s.What happened?Sales slowed,time and care was put into the products by folks wanting to stay employed.Witness the Reg mag and others.
Will that scenario play out again...somehow I guess I doubt it,but I'll cross my fingers.

 

[photoman]

The thing I don't get is someone going to a gun store, inspecting a gun, buying that gun and then getting home and complaining because they bought a gun with a "canted" barrel. Am I missing something here?

 

[canvsbk]

My 686 ssr also had the strain screw loosen up. It seems to be a common problem that should perhaps be addressed.
I had my LGS remove the lock, do a trigger job and stick that screw in there nice and tight....
what a nice gun it is.

 

[Sportsterguy]

I'm with 18DAI. No newer models for me and especially a model that needs a plug. May be missing out on some revolvers but my oldies but goodies don't suffer from the numerous quality control issues on the modern S&W's that I constantly read about here. I'll continue to buy the older revolvers as I truly believe they are the better product.

I'll say it again; a canted barrel has been INCORRECTLY installed! It should never have left the factory in that condition! I don't need a degree in engineering to detect a serious defect like that. The other problems are easy fixes and most folks can cure them. I hope folks from S&W read this forum as they could use the info to improve their problem weapons and further increase their sales and put out a fantastic product. I have cut and pasted numerous posts from here and sent it to them in one e-mail to make them aware they are losing potential buyers from QC issues. I was very polite but never received a respnse back. Alot like a car, once it breaks your trust level goes down and that is a serious issue if it's a self defense weapon. Love my S&W's and can only imagine there must be many more revolvers out there we've never heard about with the same problems I'm reading about on this fine forum.

JMHO

 

[Wayne M]

Loose screws and rods you learn about pretty quickly(after your first experience). Any revolvers you buy from now one you'll tighten that stuff down before you go to the range: not Smith's responsibility in my opinion. If you ordered the revolver and the barrel came canted that's one thing, if you bought it in the store from a case just send it back and remember the lesson the next time. Close inspection can save you a lot of grief.

 

[AveragEd]

The thing I don't get is someone going to a gun store, inspecting a gun, buying that gun and then getting home and complaining because they bought a gun with a "canted" barrel. Am I missing something here?

That's not uncommon with any product. When you're buying something, you usually are excited about the purchase and look at the item through rose-colored glasses. Later, when cleaning that gun or washing that car, defects suddenly appear.

Ed

 

[bsms]

My 2 cents: I'd bet 90+% of buyers never inspect their guns that close. And many of the rest of us don't care.

I've ordered a S&W Model 29. Maybe someday the distributor will ship it...looks like they are trying for the long side of their promised 3-7 business days. If it doesn't look like someone ran over it with a truck, I'll accept it.

Then I'll tighten any screws that need it and go shoot it. If it shoots well and the finish is good, I'll be happy. I paid less than I did for my Ruger Alaskan, that shoots great but looks like it was finished by dragging it behind a truck.

If it shoots poorly or the finish sucks, I'll ship it to S&W for fixing. I'm confident they will make it right. Then I'll shoot it until I'm too old to hold a gun. Then my kids will fight over it.

My Ruger Alaskan shoots great. Looks horrible, but shoots great. The first time I shot it, the rear sight nearly fell off. The gun shop where I got my CCW license and that did the transfer said to bring it by. A dab of red locktite, and now it just shoots and shoots.

I honestly don't care if the barrel is slightly canted if it shoots well. For $750, I don't expect a gun made by the Elves in Rivendell. I do expect, and am very confident I will find, that S&W will do whatever it takes to deliver a good shooting gun that I will enjoy for the rest of my life.

I don't know if my 686+ has a canted barrel. It shoots well. The set strain screw backed out almost all the way when shooting, so I cleaned it, applied a bit of blue locktite, and screwed it all the way in. From time to time, when cleaning, I'll check it isn't backing out.

My 60LS shoots darn well for a 2" snubbie. I haven't examined its barrel, but it carries and shoots well.

I'm happy. Happier than I would be if I had to pay 30% more for the gun...

 

[dwever]

The thing I don't get is someone going to a gun store, inspecting a gun, buying that gun and then getting home and complaining because they bought a gun with a "canted" barrel. Am I missing something here?

Yeah, I think so. Not everyone knows what to look for, and things don't jump out at them. Things that seem intuitively obvious to someone who's been around revolvers for years can be virtually hidden from someone who may be new - true with many disciplines. People are introduced to or become enthusiastic about firearms at different points. When I get around someone who doesn't see the obvious with a weapon, I remember that was overwhelmingly me as a seventeen year old in the military years ago.

I'll also mention that when I bought my 'Bloodwork' 627, they were very hard to find, and I finally ended up ordering from a distributor through a dealer sight unseen, and I was very fortunate, and in some ways it has been the most satisfying hand gun I have ever owned. I'd do it again if I had to.

I'll also mention again that my four performance center purchases and two non-performance center purchases have gone out without a hitch, except for an ammo finicky 1911 (Perf Ctr 627 5", 627 2.625", 629 Stealth Hunter 7.5", Melonite 1911; non-Perf Ctr 617 and Gun Site Edition 1911).

 

[617X10]

If it shoots to POA and has no detrements causing reliability concerns, I wouldn't care if the barrel was canted. They're supposed to be tools, not collector's items. S&W makes the best revolvers out there for the money, and they're not the only gun manufacturer trying to cut costs due to the prices of labor. How many features can you get on a Ruger? Stainless or stainless for a double action, more for the single actions and large framed hunting revolvers, but they still don't have a selection like Smith and Wesson. Taurus has a few options, but they're ugly and have a bad reputation(on this forum anyway). If you like revolvers and look around at the alternatives, I'd say Smith is doing a pretty bang up job. Especially with the apparent demand for plastic double stack autos and 1911s these days. In every gun store I frequent around here, it seems like a 10 to 1 ratio of Glocks, XDs, M&Ps and 1911s to revolvers. What's really mortifying, some nice Smiths are being put in the cases as trade-ins for the above unmentionables.

 

[XTrooper]

Would I like the guys from Austria to go to Connecticut and explain some things there regarding production consistency? Yeah.

Who in Connecticut do you want the Austrians to talk to when they get there?

 

[photoman]

Would I like the guys from Austria to go to Connecticut and explain some things there regarding production consistency? Yeah.

With the problems Glock is having with the Gen4 guns, I say, "Please stay home!"

Bottom line to the subject is, products on the market today are sloppy, pieces of junk compared to what was being made 60-70-80 years ago. I recently bought a 1948 Military & Police snub and the quality of craftsmanship of that gun makes me want to cry when I hold it up to the new guns.

In defense of S&W, if we corrected for inflation and dollar purchasing power loss, a new gun would cost thousands of dollars compared to a 1940's revolver. Alas, nobody in today's market is willing to pay that for a production gun. Even the PC guns are only $1000 or so and most of them sit on the shelves for months before someone buys them.

 

[JohnAC]

My 2 cents: I'd bet 90+% of buyers never inspect their guns that close. And many of the rest of us don't care.

My Ruger Alaskan shoots great. Looks horrible, but shoots great. The first time I shot it, the rear sight nearly fell off. The gun shop where I got my CCW license and that did the transfer said to bring it by. A dab of red locktite, and now it just shoots and shoots.

I know what you mean on the Alaskan! Brand new, first shoot at the range... 6th shot, I went to reload and noticed the rear sight pin had drifted to the point it was about to fall out!

Removed the pin, put a 'bend' in it, tapped her back in. That was about 600 rounds ago, haven't noticed since. Not the prettiest revolver of the group, but a mean s.o.b. none-the-less.