Question about firearm sales or such

[oldman45]

I have a cousin in GA. I live in LA. He says I can come visit and attend a large gun show in Atlanta. All is good so far except I cannot directly buy a handgun in Atlanta.

Cousin says he will buy what ever gun I want and then he can give it to me and all will be legal. Granted, I know he would want his money back that he spent for the gift.

I read the fed rules on this and from what I read, a bequest between parties in different states is legal.

Am I right or wrong?

 

[VM]

I'm not an FFL, but my vote is WRONG

 

[NKJ nut]

I have a cousin in GA. I live in LA. He says I can come visit and attend a large gun show in Atlanta. All is good so far except I cannot directly buy a handgun in Atlanta.

Cousin says he will buy what ever gun I want and then he can give it to me and all will be legal. Granted, I know he would want his money back that he spent for the gift.

I read the fed rules on this and from what I read, a bequest between parties in different states is legal.

Am I right or wrong?

He is going to "give" it to you but he will want the money back?

This is what the ATF calls a Straw Purchase and it is illegal.

 

[-db-]

I'm not a gun forum lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I suspect this would be considered a straw purchase, a definite no-no in the eyes of the law.

 

[oldman45]

I'm not an FFL, but my vote is WRONG

Ok, but what about this?

Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor's state of residence.

The way I read this, someone can make their desires known that I am to receive the guns. I can then reimburse the person for the cost of the gun.

Again, I am likely wrong but it is the way I read it.

bequeath >verb 1 leave (property) to someone by a will. 2 hand down or pass on.

So if a cousin passes the gun down to me, that is by bequest.

I am dumb as a yard of dirt but educated beyond my level of intelligence. It is more probable than not that I am way wrong on this but before I run off to Atlanta, I want to know for sure.

 

[Beemer-mark]

A straw purchase is when you purchase a gun for someone who is prevented legally from purchasing it. I think this might fall into that category because while you can gift a gun to a close relative, I don't think a cousin falls into that category.

Then again if both are parties not prevented from purchasing a firearm who will know? If the GA cousin visits his LA cousin and leaves the firearm who is going to report it?

I'm in NC. If I give my daughter, a Federal LEO, one of my handguns am I violating the law? (BTW, fat chance that's going to happen).

I love questions like this. Only law abiding citizens who have a constitutional right to own a gun would even consider the question.

 

[oldman45]

I'm not a gun forum lawyer and don't pretend to be one but I suspect this would be considered a straw purchase, a definite no-no in the eyes of the law.

We all buy guns for those relatives that, for whatever reason, wanted the gun. I bought a daughter a gun she wanted. I bought it from a FFL dealer and he knew up front it was for her but since I was buying the gun to give to her, then it was a legal sale according to him.

Granted it is all a play on wording but then lawyers get people off with murder by using a play on words.

I admit to the chance of my cousin buying a gun for me is not likely to cause a problem in the legal realm. He would not complain, I would not complain and everything would be ok. However I want everything to be legal. My profession frowns on me going afoul of the law.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Unless an ATF agent reads this thread and catches you paying back your cousin, how will anyone ever know the story of how you acquired the firearm?

Except us, of course.

 

[oldman45]

A straw purchase is when you purchase a gun for someone who is prevented legally from purchasing it. I think this might fall into that category because while you can gift a gun to a close relative, I don't think a cousin falls into that category.

Then again if both are parties not prevented from purchasing a firearm who will know? If the GA cousin visits his LA cousin and leaves the firearm who is going to report it?

I'm in NC. If I give my daughter, a Federal LEO, one of my handguns am I violating the law? (BTW, fat chance that's going to happen).

I love questions like this. Only law abiding citizens who have a constitutional right to own a gun would even consider the question.

Exactly my point in question. Why would anyone else care and what would it matter?

I just do not want to violate the letter of the law anymore than I do accidently now. I only recently learned I violate the law when I enter a Circle K with a gun on my side. Then I learned when I am on city owned property with a gun, I violate the law. All accidental but a violation none the less

 

[pilgrim6a]

It comes under the 'Straw Man Rule'. You CANNOT purchase a firearm for anyone who is legally prohibited from buying a firearm. It doesn't matter if it's a friend from out of state or someone with a record. One of the questions on the BATF is about this very thing.
Uncle Sugar is VERY narrow minded on this issue. It isn't a subject you should even discuss in gun shops or gun shows.
Your best bet is to purchase from a FFL at the show and have it shipped to your local FFL.

Sorry, I type slowly. Before I hit 'Post" 5 people beat me to it!

 

[oldman45]

It comes under the 'Straw Man Rule'. You CANNOT purchase a firearm for anyone who is legally prohibited from buying a firearm. It doesn't matter if it's a friend from out of state or someone with a record. One of the questions on the BATF is about this very thing.
Uncle Sugar is VERY narrow minded on this issue. It isn't a subject you should even discuss in gun shops or gun shows.
Your best bet is to purchase from a FFL at the show and have it shipped to your local FFL.

Neither of us are legally prohibited from buying or owning firearms. Both have CCW and have been full time LEO. IN this case, the GA cousin is just older and uglier than I am.

 

[The Big D]

...I only recently learned I violate the law when I enter a Circle K with a gun on my side. ...

Yes, the straw purchase would be a violation of the law.

Now for a bit of thread drift...

How could you "violate the law" when you enter a Circle K? (Note: I am presuming Circle K where you live is the same as all other Circle K stores I have seen.)

Be safe.

 

[oldman45]

Yes, the straw purchase would be a violation of the law.

Now for a bit of thread drift...

How could you "violate the law" when you enter a Circle K? (Note: I am presuming Circle K where you live is the same as all other Circle K stores I have seen.)

Be safe.

Circle K stores nationwide are posted that firearms are not allowed inside. Notices are posted on front windows. It is well known they are anti gun and contribute generously to anti gun groups.

 

[The Big D]

Circle K stores nationwide are posted that firearms are not allowed inside. Notices are posted on front windows. It is well known they are anti gun and contribute generously to anti gun groups.

Thanks for the feedback. As I suspected. BTW, you likely don't "violate the law" therein, but they could throw you out/refuse you service. That's the case where I reside. i.e. NOT a criminal violation.

Thanks, again.

Be safe.

 

[2152hq]

You are legally prohibited from purchasing a handgun in GA from a dealer FTF and taking possession of it in GA.

Knowing that and then having someone else purchase it for you under those circumstances, they take possession of it,,and then turn around and give it to you is a textbook strawman purchase.

A legal bequest can take place w/o the need to go through an FFL,,but it is just that,,from the estate of the deceased.

 

[NKJ nut]

Neither of us are legally prohibited from buying or owning firearms. Both have CCW and have been full time LEO. IN this case, the GA cousin is just older and uglier than I am.

An individual is prohibited by federal law from going to another state and buying and taking delivery of a handgun while he is there.

What you and your cousin are discussing fits the very definition of a straw purchase. Question 11A on form 4473 is: "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person."

Then flip over to page two and read the penalty for answering untruthfully to that question. It is a felony. The person filling out the form certifies by his signature that the answers given are "true, correct and complete".

The small cost of purchasing the handgun and having it shipped to a dealer in your state isn't anything compared to getting in trouble with ATF. And believe me ATF takes straw purchases very seriously.

 

[kenster]

Your first mistake is asking such a question on this blog. Didn't you think law enforcement and ATF would read your post? Hope your cousin doesn't get in trouble when you get busted for your own stupidity.

You can go to a gun show in just about any state and buy a used gun from a private party and there would be no paper trail.
Unless you have FELON tattooed on your forhead.

 

[NKJ nut]

We all buy guns for those relatives that, for whatever reason, wanted the gun. I bought a daughter a gun she wanted. I bought it from a FFL dealer and he knew up front it was for her but since I was buying the gun to give to her, then it was a legal sale according to him.

Granted it is all a play on wording but then lawyers get people off with murder by using a play on words.

I admit to the chance of my cousin buying a gun for me is not likely to cause a problem in the legal realm. He would not complain, I would not complain and everything would be ok. However I want everything to be legal. My profession frowns on me going afoul of the law.

You can legally buy a gun as a gift for someone, as you are still the actual purchaser of the gun.You are buying the gun for your daughter with your own money with no understanding that you will be reimbursed.

A gift is one thing, a straw purchase is another. A straw purchase is done to allow someone to get around the restrictions imposed by federal law. Which is the whole purpose of getting the cousin to purchase the handgun.

 

[oldman45]

Your first mistake is asking such a question on this blog. Didn't you think law enforcement and ATF would read your post? Hope your cousin doesn't get in trouble when you get busted for your own stupidity.

You can go to a gun show in just about any state and buy a used gun from a private party and there would be no paper trail.
Unless you have FELON tattooed on your forhead.

Nothing in life now is private. ATF can read all they want. Proving it is something else. I see felons with guns daily. Their guns get seized, they get arrested and next week they are back on the street carrying again. All I see the ATF doing is going after honest citizens.

Now as to my cousin, I got so many of them in Atlanta, the ATF could spend years looking for the right one.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Ok, but what about this?

Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor's state of residence.
bequeath >verb 1 leave (property) to someone by a will. 2 hand down or pass on.

So if a cousin passes the gun down to me, that is by bequest.

I don't know which dictionary you are using, but I can garowntee you that the ATF and any courts that get involved are going to read that your cousin can't bequeath you diddly squat without being dead first. That's the meaning of bequest that they are using, and that's why they included intestate succession. Don't even look for a lawyer to tell you different; most likely, you'd learn more about the lawyer than the law.