Question about firearm sales or such

[oldman45]

He is going to "give" it to you but he will want the money back?

This is what the ATF calls a Straw Purchase and it is illegal.

I agree with you to a point. We both agree on the Straw Purchaser.

The intent would even lean toward a Straw Purchase.

Yet how many times has someone offered to give you something you did not feel right about just taking so you gave them a few dollars for it or for their trouble. I see it in the legal profession often. Even the SCOTUS does not agree 100% on what the law means or how to interpret it.

I will say this, I refuse to do anything illegal. PERIOD. Shady, maybe but not illegal. Example: I know the cousin could give me a gun by passing it on to me. Totally legal. Later he may fall upon hard times and I let him have $500, again, totally legal. Looking back on it, I may let him have the $500 simply because he was nice enough to let me have the gun first. The way I read the rules, that would be a totally innocent event and not buying a gun from him.

Now to say this, he tells me gun sales at this show are often between individuals and no paperwork is done. THIS scares me. I do not want a stolen gun. So I will not buy one like that. While I have bought guns from individuals, I always run the serial numbers before I buy and these have always been local transactions. I do not have any connections in GA LE to run the numbers.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Read This Very Slowly

Unless an ATF agent reads this thread and catches you paying back your cousin, how will anyone ever know the story of how you acquired the firearm?
Except us, of course.

Just brilliant. Click on this link: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf and then read item 11a. very carefully. It reads: "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearms on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearms to you."

What in tarnation is so danged difficult to understand about that? If you decide to do what your cousin proposes, be sure to post you and your cousin's addresses at the Graybar Hotel. I'm pretty sure they have one in Atlanta. Some of us may even drop you a post card once in a while.

I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that this thread is all that is needed to establish the criminal intent behind this proposed transaction. All the squirmin' and wormin' in the world will not persuade a Federal judge that you had anything in mind other than to circumvent the intent of the GCA68, and that, my friend, is a felony. Perhaps Cajunlawyer or one of the other legal eagles on here will educate the class on the meaning of "mens rea," the "guilty mind." See here if you don't want to stick around for the lecture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea


Bullseye

 

[oldman45]

I don't know which dictionary you are using, but I can garowntee you that the ATF and any courts that get involved are going to read that your cousin can't bequeath you diddly squat without being dead first. That's the meaning of bequest that they are using, and that's why they included intestate succession. Don't even look for a lawyer to tell you different; most likely, you'd learn more about the lawyer than the law.

The dictionary says hand down or pass on. Neither are prefaced by being deceased. My wife passed on a grandfather clock to our daughter. My wife is still living.

BTW: A lawyer I work with often had a gun left to him by his father. He knew I collected them so he passed it on to me. Yes, we are both in the same state but he still passed it on to me. No money changed hands.

 

[pilgrim6a]

Kenster makes a good point.
On the 'Circle K' thing. Don't shop there. Don't be shy about telling anyone why you don't shop there. Some local shops put up the no handgun signs when the CC laws came in. The signs came down when they started losing customers. Vote with your wallet.

 

[oldman45]

Just brilliant. Click on this link: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf and then read item 11a. very carefully. It reads: "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearms on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearms to you."

What in tarnation is so danged difficult to understand about that? If you decide to do what your cousin proposes, be sure to post you and your cousin's addresses at the Graybar Hotel. Some of us may even drop you a post card once in a while.


Bullseye

Bullseye, I went to the form as you posted and agree with what you say and what the form says. However, even recently I filled out a form that had a box for buying it as a gift and that was what I was doing at the time, although I wish now I had not done so. When the form changed I cannot say.

Also I noticed that there is now some exemptions for those with legal permits in some states. I am wondering what states the permit takes the place of the background check. Do you have any idea where one could learn what states uses the state permits in lieu of?

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Bullseye, I went to the form as you posted and agree with what you say and what the form says. However, even recently I filled out a form that had a box for buying it as a gift and that was what I was doing at the time, although I wish now I had not done so. When the form changed I cannot say.

Also I noticed that there is now some exemptions for those with legal permits in some states. I am wondering what states the permit takes the place of the background check. Do you have any idea where one could learn what states uses the state permits in lieu of?

It doesn't make any difference. You are a resident of Louisiana, not Georgia. With respect to handgun purchases in Louisiana, which is the only state in which you can legally acquire same, I'd call the Concealed Handgun Permit Unit at the Louisiana State Police, (225) 925-4867, and ask them.


Bullseye

 

[pharmer]

It isn't a subject you should even discuss in gun shops or gun shows.

Or on the S&W Forum. Go and look, have a good time. Handle some guns, find one you like. Then go the flock back home and pay the local shop the extra $50 bucks you're trying to save, do the 4473 and don't bring this up again. Joe

 

[NKJ nut]

I agree with you to a point. We both agree on the Straw Purchaser.

The intent would even lean toward a Straw Purchase.

Yet how many times has someone offered to give you something you did not feel right about just taking so you gave them a few dollars for it or for their trouble. I see it in the legal profession often. Even the SCOTUS does not agree 100% on what the law means or how to interpret it.

I will say this, I refuse to do anything illegal. PERIOD. Shady, maybe but not illegal. Example: I know the cousin could give me a gun by passing it on to me. Totally legal. Later he may fall upon hard times and I let him have $500, again, totally legal. Looking back on it, I may let him have the $500 simply because he was nice enough to let me have the gun first. The way I read the rules, that would be a totally innocent event and not buying a gun from him.

Now to say this, he tells me gun sales at this show are often between individuals and no paperwork is done. THIS scares me. I do not want a stolen gun. So I will not buy one like that. While I have bought guns from individuals, I always run the serial numbers before I buy and these have always been local transactions. I do not have any connections in GA LE to run the numbers.

We are not talking about a totally innocent event, we are talking about a straw purchase of a firearm, which is illegal under federal law. ATF will have no qualms whatsoever about arresting someone for this. Any personal opinions as to the legality of such a deal can be explained to the court.

And don't count on the ATF to not find out about it. At the last ATF seminar for FFL's dealers that I attended this matter of spotting a straw purchase was discussed. If the dealer has reason to believe a straw purchase has occurred, count on him to contact ATF. And they could be right in the building.

Guilty parties could wind up in handcuffs sooner than they think.

But I am going to leave it up to you and your cousin. You have received the advice here that you need to avoid getting in trouble. How you choose to use it is up to you...

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Or on the S&W Forum. Go and look, have a good time. Handle some guns, find one you like. Then go the flock back home and pay the local shop the extra $50 bucks you're trying to save, do the 4473 and don't bring this up again. Joe

+1. Or, if you do find one you like, pay for it, and then have the dealer transfer it to you through your Louisiana FFL. Mine gives me a copy of his 01 license to take with me when I go to gun shows in North Carolina (out of state for me). If I see a gun I like, I buy it, give that seller the copy of my local dealer's FFL, and everyone is happy.


Bullseye

 

[m1gunner]

This is no more prohibited than claiming your dog and cat as dependents on your tax return.

It isn't like it is against the law, or the Treasury Dept. is going to make a Federal Case out of it.........

Oh wait....never mind.........

 

[watchmanjimg]

Just brilliant. Click on this link: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf and then read item 11a. very carefully. It reads: "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearms on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearms to you."

What in tarnation is so danged difficult to understand about that? If you decide to do what your cousin proposes, be sure to post you and your cousin's addresses at the Graybar Hotel. I'm pretty sure they have one in Atlanta. Some of us may even drop you a post card once in a while.

I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that this thread is all that is needed to establish the criminal intent behind this proposed transaction. All the squirmin' and wormin' in the world will not persuade a Federal judge that you had anything in mind other than to circumvent the intent of the GCA68, and that, my friend, is a felony. Perhaps Cajunlawyer or one of the other legal eagles on here will educate the class on the meaning of "mens rea," the "guilty mind." See here if you don't want to stick around for the lecture: Mens rea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Bullseye

Bullseye, any fool can look up ATF documents online. I wasn't advising any particular course of action. I merely stated that I doubt anyone would ever figure out what Oldman45 and his cousin were up to, assuming this plan were carried out. I know what mens rea is, so check your attitude.

 

[sheriffoconee]

Are we REALLY going to debate whether or not this is a straw purchase, and do it in three pages....???????????
Seriously??????????

 

[watchmanjimg]

I don't know if it's serious, Sheriff, but here we are on Page 4 . . .

 

[ColbyBruce]

Sir, if you have a favorite FFL in LA then ask him for a few signed copies of his FFL to carry with you to GA. If you see something you can't live without, pay for it and have the dealer ship it to LA. Cheaper than a lawyer for you and your cousin.

To be honest, I haven't seen a thing at a gunshow in metro Atlanta that interested me in nearly three years. If you have specific interests, P.M. me and I might be able to point you to some metro shops that might have what you want.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

The dictionary says hand down or pass on. Neither are prefaced by being deceased. My wife passed on a grandfather clock to our daughter. My wife is still living.

BTW: A lawyer I work with often had a gun left to him by his father. He knew I collected them so he passed it on to me. Yes, we are both in the same state but he still passed it on to me. No money changed hands.

You're making a simple subject complicated, but I know you want to do the right thing, so I will try to clarify this for you. In the ATF rules/law you quoted before, "bequest" means what a dead person gives in a will. Neither I nor the ATF cares what your dictionary says, and I'm pretty sure that no court will, either, especially when it is followed by "or intestate succession."

It doesn't matter that someone legally passed a gun on to you in your own state. You could have ten other guns from various legal sources, with or without paperwork. None of the eleven would have anything to do with the fact that you are not getting a gun "by bequest," in the meaning of the ATF language, from your out-of-state cousin, or even an in-state brother-in-law, unless said relation is dead. While they are alive, the first is an illegal transfer, and the second is probably a legal transfer.

Find a new dictionary.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

I wasn't advising any particular course of action. I merely stated that I doubt anyone would ever figure out what Oldman45 and his cousin were up to, assuming this plan were carried out. I know what mens rea is, so check your attitude.

Rrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhtttttttttt. Looks like subborning a conspiracy to violate the GCA68 to me, but hey, I'm just some fool. What do I know?

By the way, my mama taught me that the one who starts the name-calling is always in the wrong. But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a fool.

Out of respect for Handejector, let's take this off-line should you wish to continue it.


Bullseye, aka "Justafool"

 

[ladder13]

I don't know if it's serious, Sheriff, but here we are on Page 4 . . .

I'm still on page 1

 

[watchmanjimg]

Rrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhtttttttttt. Looks like subborning a conspiracy to violate the GCA68 to me, but hey, I'm just some fool. What do I know?

By the way, my mama taught me that the one who starts the name-calling is always in the wrong. But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a fool.

Out of respect for Handejector, let's take this off-line should you wish to continue it.


Bullseye, aka "Justafool"

Out of respect for you as well as Handejector, let's finish it right here. I apologize for implying that you're a fool, but I assume your mama also taught you that if you don't have anything nice to say . . .

No hard feelings here.

 

[OKFC05]

ALL FEDERAL FIREARM VIOLATIONS ARE FELONIES

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Out of respect for you as well as Handejector, let's finish it right here. I apologize for implying that you're a fool, but I assume your mama also taught you that if you don't have anything nice to say . . . No hard feelings here.

No hard feelings here either. Let's all agree to be careful not to even give the impression that anyone here condones felony violations of the GCA68, humorous intent, or not.


Bullseye