Question about +P

[Alpo]

I don't think this is so much an "ammo question" as it is a gun question, which is why I put it here.

When did it become safe to shoot +P in a K frame 38?

Guy on another board made the comment that if it was made after '82 it was safe with any 38 loads, but that S&W said prior to '82 the cylinder heat treating would not handle them.

I know that J-frames used to be "not safe for +P", and I've heard "pre-war K-guns are not safe" with it. I've heard "Pre model-number K-guns" are not safe with it.

I find reference to the FBI using a +P load in 1972. Seems like ten years is a long time for Smith to think about making their guns strong enough to handle these rounds.

Does anyone know when the actual date is, that your gun is safe with it? I don't shoot it, myself. I figger if I need that much power I'll use a bigger gun. But I'm curious. 1982 seems awful late, to me.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

S&W says 1957. Heat-treating M&P cylinders started with serial number 316648. Saxon Pig will be along shortly to compare modern-day +P with older "standard" ammo.

 

[David LaPell]

I believe +P ammo became commercially available in 1974 and I would have to snag the big Smith & Wesson Manual to see when the factory "officially" declared the K frames to be able to take +P.

 

[Alpo]

If you mean the SCSW, I looked there first. Could not find anything, which is why I asked.

 

[Alpo]

If it was '57, could '82 be when they started making Js strong enough?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

S&W says 1957.

Another way of saying this is that if it is a steel K-frame and has a model number on it, S&W says it's OK for +P.

 

[Texas Star]

I've never seen 1982 as a reference to anything having to do with Plus P. I think the guy is full of what Skeeter Skelton used to call condensed apple pie.

The factory says 1957, as has been posted. But in the 1960's, I asked if K-frames would take .38-44 ammo. Plus P, less potent usually, was yet to arrive. S&W Sales Manager Fred Miller replied that the guns were safe to fire, but that if one would use much .38-44 High Velocity ammo, the gun would shake loose much sooner and that recoil would be unpleasant. He strongly suggested that I buy a .38-44 or a .357 if I planned to fire much high speed .38 ammo.

However, he did confirm that the M&P/M-10 was safe to fire with that high powered round, so it'd surely be safe with milder Plus P's. I assume that he was talking about recent guns, although he didn't warn aganst older ones.

I am getting sick and tired of answering these Plus P questions several times a week. What do we need to do to get a sticky on this?

 

[Arik]

I was told its safe to shoot +p when S&W started using numbers to designate guns. This doesnt mean its safe to feed them a steady diet of +p but to test a load and carry it its safe.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[diamonback68]

I am getting sick and tired of answering these Plus P questions several times a week. What do we need to do to get a sticky on this?

I tend to agree. Why do people who don't even know what the gun is other than it's a .38Spl, may not have even seen it or bought it yet, haven't even fired it and the first thing they want to know is "can I shoot +Ps in it". I guess it's the "hot rod" everything mentality society we live in.
This is in no way directed at poster Alpo.

 

[Rule3]

But? are they effective for Bear protection?

 

[Arik]

But? are they effective for Bear protection?

Yes but you need a 22lr +p

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[carpriver]

When I decided to use +p ammo in my revolver I opted to use it in my 686 snub nose and my M60 357. I was looking for ammo with a bit more power then the standard 38 spl. round but with a bit less report of a 357. I don't own a older 38spl revolver and was not concerned about damage to my gun. A person new to collecting vintage Smith & Wesson revolvers may not have the information about the safety of using +p in their newly acquired revolver. The experts could get together a write up the information on this topic an have a the head guy what's in charge make it a sticky; that way uneducated shooters could be redirected and some of the knowledgeable folks would not have to get their big boy panties in a bunch.

 

[Alpo]

I was actually hoping for a sticky, but alas, I did not find one.

 

[Arik]

We also need a sticky for steel case/Russian ammo

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[shouldazagged]

I've never seen 1982 as a reference to anything having to do with Plus P. I think the guy is full of what Skeeter Skelton used to call condensed apple pie.

That's lovely! Vintage Skeeter.

Here's another vote for a sticky.

 

[bigride]

Depends on which end of the gun you happen to be standing.

 

[anglaispierre]

When I decided to use +p ammo in my revolver I opted to use it in my 686 snub nose and my M60 357. I was looking for ammo with a bit more power then the standard 38 spl. round but with a bit less report of a 357. I don't own a older 38spl revolver and was not concerned about damage to my gun. A person new to collecting vintage Smith & Wesson revolvers may not have the information about the safety of using +p in their newly acquired revolver. The experts could get together a write up the information on this topic an have a the head guy what's in charge make it a sticky; that way uneducated shooters could be redirected and some of the knowledgeable folks would not have to get their big boy panties in a bunch.

Surely one solution to your problem, instead of a more poweful 38 Sp, is to reload 357s with a slightly reduced load giving a more comfortable recoil - unless someone says this is not a good solution.

 

[pharmer]

I would shoot factory +P in any modern K frame. I have a 642-1 that is clearly marked "+P" on the barrel. Even the wimpy modern stuff seems a bit much for that 1/16" thick frame under the barrel, I ain't going for it. The 640 that is not marked for +P seems made for it. I tend to go my own way most of the time, erring on the side of caution most of the time. Joe

 

[sac-gunslinger]

But? are they effective for Bear protection?

Or Zombies? How about Zombies? Big ugly ones?

 

[Texas Star]

Surely one solution to your problem, instead of a more poweful 38 Sp, is to reload 357s with a slightly reduced load giving a more comfortable recoil - unless someone says this is not a good solution.

Anglaispierre-

It's good to see you posting again. I thought maybe you'd eaten too much pate de foie gras and had a heart attack. I like to think of you as our man in France, but thinking and speaking with an Anglo mindset.

Your solution is sound, but many of us don't reload and need factory ammo. The better factory selections in Plus P are often excellent choices for the need. Also, here we can buy medium power .357 ammo for guns that take the .357 ctg. Most Plus P is probably fired in .38-only guns.

I have no hesitation about using Plus P where warranted; I just don't use it all the time, when the added power doesn't matter and will eventually cause cylinder endshake and timing problems sooner than if the gun uses mainly std. loads.

Plus P is a great advance in .38 Special ammuntion. I just wish that dealers stocked more of the lead SWC-HP versions. But Speer's Gold Dot is a very good item and I like Federal's Hydra-Shok pretty well, too. I have not tried the Winchester offerings, but they seem to do very well in gelatin trials. Speer told me that NYCPD and LAPD use the 135 grain Short Barrel Gold Dot with considerable satisfaction. Stopping failures are rare.

BTW, the doctor conducting the Dallas police tests told me that the old lead RN bullet was actually depositing just 74 foot lbs. of energy in the blocks, passing through without losing more of its potential energy. The Winchester lead Plus P HP left over 200 foot lbs.of energy in the gelatin blocks!