Question for older LEOs

[kscardsfan]

Back in the bad old days when I was a rookie, many of the old timers carried a device known as "the claw." The claw was about 6 inches long. It consisted of a T handle. Beneath that was a spring loaded collar. Below that were two curved spring loaded, steel claws about 4" long. To employ the claw the officer placed the T handle in the palm of his hand, pulled up on the collar and the claws sprung apart. Then he would grab a wrist, forearm or elbow and give the handle a twist. Then the biggest and baddest turned meek instantly. This tool put the "come" in come along. By the mid seventies the days of the claw were over.

That thing sounds brutal. I am looking at that as someone who would have to be "trained" in using it i.e. having to have it used against me first. I know that pa-paw said in his day (1959-1993) he could just line up and hit a homerun off someone's skull and nobody would say a word about it. He worries about current LEOs cause of all the use of force continums, having to use pressure point control etc. He was the original fan of less than leathal weaponry, just very crude technology (an old axe handle). He never carried his gun outside of his car unless he knew the other person had a gun too.

 

[Texas Star]

I never had need to use it, but got nightstick training as an Air Force cop. We were told to hit someone in the shins, as many persons were considered too thick-headed for an effective blow there.

I once worked a Presidential security detail, at the USAF academy, with their force, our OSI, and Secret Service agents. Some of the guys at the Academy had lead-loaded nightsticks, which one told me worked quite well.

I was always concerned that my stick might break in use. I thought in terms of using the point, if possible, on the solar plexus of an offender. We were trained to do that.

BTW, I had little faith in the .38 revover ammo, but our local office bought some .38 High Velocity ammo with unit funds. I carried that with more confidence. Still wish that we'd had hollowpoint Plus P's. Thankfully, I never drew my .38 except when searching for a bad guy. Never fired it, other than on the range.

T-Star

 

[nicky4968]

Somehow, I get the feeling that there is a lot more to this story that we're not being told. It appears you were walking down the street and were pounded silly for no reason.

I never used a "blackjack" but carried and used a slapper for years. They were very effective but one had to be careful to strike w/ the flat part and not the edge. Then we became a kinder, gentler police department and they disallowed their use-I don't know--around the late 80's??

Any impact weapon hurts and is capable of doing damage. We wouldn't want to hurt any citizens, would we?

In answer to the first question, no one I ever saw used one unless it was necessary. The next question is always: was it really necessary?

I was hit once in the ribs, not pounded silly. Believe me, once was enough.
While I have the highest respect for law enforcement officers in general, you'll have to take my word for it that sometimes a sadist can sneak through.
I was a union man in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Iggy]

We learned a technique for use with the LAPD baton called 3 from the ring. We were advised if 3 from the ring didn't work, use six from the holster.

Fortunately I never had to try it on anyone.

 

[kscardsfan]

We learned a technique for use with the LAPD baton called 3 from the ring. We were advised if 3 from the ring didn't work, use six from the holster.

Fortunately I never had to try it on anyone.

What was the 3 from the ring technique?

 

[bobcat]

No saps when I came in, we had the wooden baton,to much of a PITA to carry, especially when you had to foot chase. I had (still have) a 3 D cell maglite, it was used very effectively as a non lethal weapon a few times, and it was tossed a few time also at runners to take their legs out. It shows the use & abuse, and still works fine.

 

[jimmyj]

Started LEO in 1962. Used the "Convoy" Blackjack which was 16oz of round lead head mounted on a steel spring and the entire blackjack was black leather covered. Used it along with a five cell flashlight, and a wooden "Nightstick". Yes the "Convoy" did some awesome damage to a BG. As the years went by the wooden Nightstick was replaced by "Asp' and PR-24. The five cell flashlight was replace by the "Maglite". I carried a "Convoy", Don Hume Border Holster, S&W Model 29, Speedloaders and a 12 round cartridge loop slide until 1999 when I had to accept a Sig 229, SSIII holster, and Taser. I still have my "Real Cop" equipment.

 

[Iggy]

What was the 3 from the ring technique?

It was a sudden and aggressive series of moves with strikes to the face,throat, and groin in rapid order.

Nuff Sed.

 

[jimmyj]

Pepper Spray is not effective 100%
and guess what? Neither is the Taser!

 

[NE450No2]

When I started in 1976 a few guys still carried the spring loaded blackjack, and a few the sap. Some guys carried the wood baton.

I carried a 3C cell flash light, day and night. But the main non, well semi non lethal method widely used at the time was the choke hold.

If done right it worked great and most of the time left no bruises.
There were some people that were near impossible to choke out, and we did kill a few, that fought violently, mainly in latter years when cocaine became more popular.

I once got a Commendation from a fella I choked out. He told the jail Sgt. how I had choked him out, not hurting him at all when he deserved to have his head caved in....

As the choke hold was being phased out, the straight nightstick was phased in for us, first in plastic, they broke in use, then later in aluminium.

The side handle PR 24 became avialable but I never liked it, never used one.

I used the choke hold and the straight stick to good effect when ever it was necessary.

My last few years on the job I carried a Titanium ASP. It was handy as you could use it in close unextended, and then flick it open if necessary. It was very convientant to carry on your belt.
I still kept my straight aluminium stick in the vehicle for those bar brawls.


I carried pepperspray, but never used it as it can easily effect the user as well.
I trained on the new stuff like Pepperball Guns and Tasers, but never used them in the field. The nice thing about them is that you can use them from a distance.

The Three From the Ring.... I remember it well...

 

[straightshooter1]

The claw really hurt if tightened down. We had a Sergeant, when I first started, that was really an expert with it. He could draw it from his pocket, grab the bad guy's wrist and it was all over.

I tried it, but just couldn't get it right. The Sergeant tried to teach me, but the bad guys kept moving their wrists and I'd miss. Sadly, the bad guys didn't (miss that is).

If we ever meet, I'll show you the scars on my lip where the bad guys didn't miss me. I got so many scars that I decided I'd be better off as a lawyer. No more scars since then.

Bob

 

[1/74SIS]

I did 36 years on the streets in a "large city" used the straight wooden baton, side handle baton[both plastic and metal], ASP and the sap with a spring loaded handle. The ones I put my trust in were the wooden baton and the ASP. The sap was messy when used and not normally very effective.

 

[m75rlg]

Its been over 30 years since I got in a tussel on the streets. (Moved to the DA's office and then the Magistrates Bench, and now retired.) The convoy was in my pocket, but the walkie-talkie was in my hand. That walkie-talkie never did work very well after that, but the defendant became very compliant!

Still got a "convoy" in the drivers side door pockets of my car and pickup, and a slap-jack stuffed in the umpire equipment tray in the car trunk. You never know when they might be useful! (Sometime coaches/fans just don't know how to exhibit sportsmanship.)

 

[model70hunter]

I had a slapper and almost used it once. I stopped the swing. My left hand had already locked in on his throat and slammed him into a concrete wall, this convicted murderer thought he could escape through me. Poor planning on his part. I saw a D battery 6 cell light used once, it leaves a big gash. Before Maglites many LEOs used Kel-lights. Mine is a Kel-light 7 C cell unit. It is still functional after 30 years.

 

[kscardsfan]

Its been over 30 years since I got in a tussel on the streets. (Moved to the DA's office and then the Magistrates Bench, and now retired.) The convoy was in my pocket, but the walkie-talkie was in my hand. That walkie-talkie never did work very well after that, but the defendant became very compliant!

Still got a "convoy" in the drivers side door pockets of my car and pickup, and a slap-jack stuffed in the umpire equipment tray in the car trunk. You never know when they might be useful! (Sometime coaches/fans just don't know how to exhibit sportsmanship.)

Ah, few things beat the outright thrill of a parent following you to the locker room to argue a call 2 inning ago. Had one dad come out of the stands and get in one of my umpires faces when I was supervising one night, that was exciting lol. I had never considered carrying weapons into the ball park with me though lol. I think it was a paranoid fear that I would end up using it lol. Nice job with the walkie-talkie though, improvised weapons have a place. You don't always have time to get your hands on the weapon of choice with TSHTF.

 

[Big Cholla]

I had a flat sap early on and never used it. I took to the PR-24 side handle and never looked back. I hated to give it up when we went to ASPs. Come to think about it....both are within 5 ft. of me right now. ............ Big Cholla

 

[Lew Archer]

The sap and blackjack developed a PR problem, despite having their uses. They became the "assault weapons" of impact tools.

Recently, metal flashlights have come under attack. LAPD, to appease the madding crowd, banned Streamlights (and other large metal lights) after one incident where one was (arguably) misused.

The 9th Circuit has greatly limited where Tasers may be deployed, based on review of a case where (arguably) a Taser was misused.

And so it continues...

 

[kscardsfan]

The sap and blackjack developed a PR problem, despite having their uses. They became the "assault weapons" of impact tools.

Recently, metal flashlights have come under attack. LAPD, to appease the madding crowd, banned Streamlights (and other large metal lights) after one incident where one was (arguably) misused.

The 9th Circuit has greatly limited where Tasers may be deployed, based on review of a case where (arguably) a Taser was misused.

And so it continues...

As my con. law instructor said, the 9th circuit court lives out in legal la la land and by no means should the rest of us pay too much attention to what they said about anything.

 

[Bullseye Smith]

I used a sap and had a special pocket sew in pants to carry it. It hurt big time, made a fight short and sweet LOL. Was alway told not to hit the head or hands because it can be seen in court LOL. Most of the time I would hit down on the shoulder with ease and that took them down crying in pain. It was to easy to get carried away with, but make life easy on the fist LOL. I did use a 6 cell "C" battery light on a guy that had hold of my fellow officer and it took 10 stiches to close up the hole in the back of his head.

 

[charlie sherrill]

I have used none of the above in a long time. But the ones I did use were in confrontations where some drunk or drugged up idiot were seriously threatening my life or general well being. I have used a sap, (I had one that was 15 inches long that the sap pocket in my pants only covered 12 inches of) a convoy blackjack, a lead loaded hickory nightstick, a lead loaded fiberglass something or other, and a couple of other sorta unauthorized things. All of these were many years ago.

One of those was a large bed post that had carved into it "walk softly but carry a big stick." It had been taken away from someone a long time ago and left in the desk sergeant's office where I was stationed that night. An officer had brought a guy in to be booked and the guy knocked the officer out as soon as he took the cuffs off of him. The guy wanted some of me and came over the desk. I grabbed the bed post and after a few minutes and an ambulance ride for two it was over. The other was a brick I discovered while being drowned in a mudhole behind a bar. It worked so good that I thought about carrying one on duty. I couldn't find a brick holster so I let that idea go.

What worked then doesn't work now. Court decisions, political correctness, bloodthirsty lawyers, department policy and lots of other stuff have changed the picture. The only thing that hasn't changed is that if you can show your life is truly endangered and you have to do something really drastic, depending on what part of the country you work in, you'll usually find some support. I still carry a mag light. A fellow ask me a few months ago on a traffic stop why I was carrying a flashlight in the middle of the day and I replied "you never know when an eclipse might occur."