whitecoyote
Member
An old leather spring-loaded blackjack (cir. 1930's?), chain pincher (?), and Mattatuck handcuffs.
Question for older LEOs
- Thread starter kscardsfan
- Start date
Charlie:
Did you ever know anyone that used a 18" length of water hose, plugged one end with a empty CO2 cartridge, and poured melted lead into the other end to make a "Baton"?
Makes a "BAD ASS" Baton.
Did you ever know anyone that used a 18" length of water hose, plugged one end with a empty CO2 cartridge, and poured melted lead into the other end to make a "Baton"?
Makes a "BAD ASS" Baton.
The Proffesor
Member
Awww, the "old Days" When I became a LEO in 1965, Saps were a part of the "equipment". The "style" of sap varied & was the "personal" choice of the officer ( if I recall correctly the "slapper" was most popular ).We still had the "sap pocket" in our pants & Many ( not all) LEOs carried. I did not.
My "choice" was a very fine pair of "sap" gloves.( Kid skin )
1. These had the "lead" on the "back" of the glove.& were ALWAYS used to "slap" (trust me getting "slapped" by these got the BGs attention.
2. They looked like "dress" gloves.( not as "bulky looking" as the "modern versions" do.) I carried them tucked into my "duty belt. When I went in on a call that I felt that they might be needed, I donned them.
3. The gloves allowed me to use my hands "normally" (grasping,using my "stick", "big flashlight" (preferred), my gun etc.
4. PR
Items 3 & 4 were why I opted for the "gloves" instead of the "sap.
Are they "for today" ?? NOPE. Today. if even "bruise" a BG, you & the Dept.are in "deep trouble. A different World & Time.
The Proffesor
My "choice" was a very fine pair of "sap" gloves.( Kid skin )
1. These had the "lead" on the "back" of the glove.& were ALWAYS used to "slap" (trust me getting "slapped" by these got the BGs attention.
2. They looked like "dress" gloves.( not as "bulky looking" as the "modern versions" do.) I carried them tucked into my "duty belt. When I went in on a call that I felt that they might be needed, I donned them.
3. The gloves allowed me to use my hands "normally" (grasping,using my "stick", "big flashlight" (preferred), my gun etc.
4. PR
Items 3 & 4 were why I opted for the "gloves" instead of the "sap.
Are they "for today" ?? NOPE. Today. if even "bruise" a BG, you & the Dept.are in "deep trouble. A different World & Time.
The Proffesor
I had a pair of those sap gloves but never had the time to put them on when I needed them.
I also carried a pick handle in the trunk of my car. It was for breaking windshields and prying on wrecked cars mostly.
I came upon an drunk at an intersection in town one day. He was standing in the middle of the street with a tire iron looking to go to war. I called the city to let them know what was going on. I got out my pick handle, but fortunately the city guys showed up in force and took over the situation.
I quite happily directed traffic while they dealt with the drunk.
I also carried a pick handle in the trunk of my car. It was for breaking windshields and prying on wrecked cars mostly.
I came upon an drunk at an intersection in town one day. He was standing in the middle of the street with a tire iron looking to go to war. I called the city to let them know what was going on. I got out my pick handle, but fortunately the city guys showed up in force and took over the situation.
I quite happily directed traffic while they dealt with the drunk.
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All of my uniform trousers were ordered with the optional sap pocket and 98% of the time there was a sap there. I was trained by an old beat cop in its use, preferred was to use to jab solar plexus, stomach, rib cage on either side of torso. Second, use the flat side against any area from the fingers to the elbow. Third, use edge only on large muscle areas. Forth, never hit anyone above the shoulders unless your life is in grave danger, as the chances your blows will cause death are way to high.
Thankfully I only had to use my sap 3 –4 times in all the years I carried one. Often the sight of a cop drawing a sap was enough to make stupid people regain their senses.
Now sap gloves were a different matter, and no I will not discuss my use of them.
Thankfully I only had to use my sap 3 –4 times in all the years I carried one. Often the sight of a cop drawing a sap was enough to make stupid people regain their senses.
Now sap gloves were a different matter, and no I will not discuss my use of them.
absolutevil
Member
I carried a flat black jack(sap) for years until the times changed when the PR24 and ASP age came. A few of the other guys had the round end sap but they hurt to sit on in the car while in your black jack pocket. I have hit people with and thrown at people a metal maglite flashlight, hit people with the flat black jack and punched people with sap gloves. The sap gloves pack a wallop. A guy committed an armed robbery at a gas station and I found him as he was fleeing the scene. One shot with the glove ended his day. Actually three days because he spent the next three days in the hospital having surgery to his face. The Ahole did file complaints on me for assaulting him but nothing ever came of it. Those days the old timers worked IA and would cover you ass, Thank God!!!!
smith revolver cop
Member
I started in '81, and they were still in use by some (though probably not most) officers. I never knew anyone who carried the spring-loaded type with the weighted end. Everyone who carried them had the flat leather sap, of varying lengths. The longer ones seemed more "effective." I had one of the shorted ones, so it fit well in my back pocket if I had a pair of trousers without the sap pocket. (Although in '81, the Kel Light was pretty popular, and this became a "flashlight pocket" for the C-cell models!) Although I only used mine a few times, it was pretty handy when I did- once, when a drunk managed to grab my baton, and another when a drunk grabbed me and I couldn't get to my baton. Grabbing that little sap got me right back in control of the situation!
The department I ended up on in '86 prohibited them very shortly thereafter. The chief's rationale was that carrying them was "not the image we wanted to present." Personally, I disagree- most people would have no idea what they are, especially if they were discreetly carried, and so it would have no effect on our "image." And, for those who knew what they were, it would present the image that we don't mess around!!! (Any perp that's ever been on the business end doesn't soon forget it. Even the drunkest idiots seem to remember it when they sober up!) They were a great back-up weapon in close quarters, and when you had a bunch of coppers piling on trying to handcuff an uncooperative suspect, they were a lot easier to deploy that a baton or a PR-24. (On a side note, I never found the PR-24 particularly practical. When we carried straight sticks, I carried a short one with the metal ball on the end. When a suspect refused to put his hands behind his back, that little ball properly applied between the shoulder blades made it an almost involuntary reaction to comply!)
The department I ended up on in '86 prohibited them very shortly thereafter. The chief's rationale was that carrying them was "not the image we wanted to present." Personally, I disagree- most people would have no idea what they are, especially if they were discreetly carried, and so it would have no effect on our "image." And, for those who knew what they were, it would present the image that we don't mess around!!! (Any perp that's ever been on the business end doesn't soon forget it. Even the drunkest idiots seem to remember it when they sober up!) They were a great back-up weapon in close quarters, and when you had a bunch of coppers piling on trying to handcuff an uncooperative suspect, they were a lot easier to deploy that a baton or a PR-24. (On a side note, I never found the PR-24 particularly practical. When we carried straight sticks, I carried a short one with the metal ball on the end. When a suspect refused to put his hands behind his back, that little ball properly applied between the shoulder blades made it an almost involuntary reaction to comply!)
smith revolver cop
Member
Oh, almost forgot one of the best uses...
They were an incredible door-knocker! A few good raps on the door, and EVERYONE inside knew who was at the door- no one could say they didn't hear you! (And, it saved your knuckles.)
They were an incredible door-knocker! A few good raps on the door, and EVERYONE inside knew who was at the door- no one could say they didn't hear you! (And, it saved your knuckles.)
absolutevil
Member
Thats funny....they did make the BEST door knocker on earth!!!!!!!!!!!
OP
kscardsfan
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I used the butt end of my flashlight. Figured worst case I could bust the glass out of the door if I really needed to.
safearm
US Veteran
I started in 1978, and our uniform trousers came with a sap pocket on the right side. I carried a "convoy" style sap; spring handle with a round end, all covered in leather. I was trained to make a fist around the spring hand and then punch. The heavy head would then snap forward and add an additional strike. One of the more effective strikes was punching the opponent in the center of the chest; the sap would hit them in the collarbone, an effective pressure point. We were specifically taught not to strike the head; less for effectiveness than PR. A cut on the head from a sap would bleed wickedly, and would make for a great picture eventhough the wound was minor.
SgtLumpy
Member
Thread CPR...
I never considered myself particularly accurate swinging any kind of sap or jack. Seemed I'd either miss the target or hit my own fingers/knuckles on the bag/dummy/partner.
I was very good with a straight baton jab. But my favorite tool was a simple yarawa (Kubaton). Kept a long handcuff key on the end and simply jammed the stick into my pants/belt. It was always handy and within reach. While cuffing, I could stick it between your fingers or across your wrist or whatever. If you started to get weird, a simple squeeze or jab with that 6" stick would down the biggest tough guy if needed. If you ever should drop it in a fight, you're not handing the other guy a 26" club to fight back with.
And as others have pointed out, they're essentially invisible. I can walk you into jail with my kubo in your armpit and just like asking a horse to move left or right, I can direct you anywhere I want you to go. The minute you protest, I simply lift up and you're compliant no matter how macho or drunk you are.
Very little chance of serious injury, very little chance of having it used against you, very cheap, always have it with you, and virtually invisible. Ideal little tool, I've always thought.
Sgt Lumpy
I never considered myself particularly accurate swinging any kind of sap or jack. Seemed I'd either miss the target or hit my own fingers/knuckles on the bag/dummy/partner.
I was very good with a straight baton jab. But my favorite tool was a simple yarawa (Kubaton). Kept a long handcuff key on the end and simply jammed the stick into my pants/belt. It was always handy and within reach. While cuffing, I could stick it between your fingers or across your wrist or whatever. If you started to get weird, a simple squeeze or jab with that 6" stick would down the biggest tough guy if needed. If you ever should drop it in a fight, you're not handing the other guy a 26" club to fight back with.
And as others have pointed out, they're essentially invisible. I can walk you into jail with my kubo in your armpit and just like asking a horse to move left or right, I can direct you anywhere I want you to go. The minute you protest, I simply lift up and you're compliant no matter how macho or drunk you are.
Very little chance of serious injury, very little chance of having it used against you, very cheap, always have it with you, and virtually invisible. Ideal little tool, I've always thought.
Sgt Lumpy
Gunslinger808
Member
Saps were great for close encounters where a baton was too unwieldy, or you already were in contact with the perp.
Like Iggy, I had a flat one that fit in the palm of my hand.
It was particularly effective when there was the chance for colateral damage by swinging a baton, such as in a crowded area.
Like Iggy, I had a flat one that fit in the palm of my hand.
It was particularly effective when there was the chance for colateral damage by swinging a baton, such as in a crowded area.
LouisianaJoe
Member
In the 70's I carried a 5 or 6 c-cell Maglight. I always held it by the head with the shaft sitting on my shoulder. It was easier to swing forward in that position. I also was trained to use the PR-24. I later made one on my wood lathe out of oak. It also made a nice shoulder stock for my Model 19 that I carried then.
Here is an article on batons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PR-24#Side-handle_baton
Here is an article on batons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PR-24#Side-handle_baton
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Been out of the job for a long time. Still have a sap, blackjack and a pair of sap gloves. They're souvenirs of the job now. All are locked away in the safe.
lawandorder
Member
Another fan of the sap gloves, we went to a lot of Bar fights calls when I worked as a municipal Officer and they were effective in that type of situation.
Got a call one time of a man with a chain saw inside a bar in a fight with others , sure did dread opening that door but I did listen to see if I could hear it revving up.
Got a call one time of a man with a chain saw inside a bar in a fight with others , sure did dread opening that door but I did listen to see if I could hear it revving up.
mickeyblueyes
Member
If you have never heard the slap of a night stick beating the back of a SBs thighs as you have him bent over the car, well you should get the recording.
mr-mom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I do not want to derail this very interesting series, but back to post #3 - Iggy, someday you owe us "the rest of the story".....
Dave
Dave
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I carried a sap before I got into law enforcement. I worked in a bus station that attracted drunks and scumbags like moths to a porch light. After I cracked a few word got around and things settled down.
Next stop was the Air Force, where my only moves were a choke hold if I could get it, or a Motorola to the side of the head if I couldn't. They didn't call those radios "bricks" for no reason.
In the Bureau I've used OC spray but mostly kept to choke holds and radio strikes. Once I threw a D cell Maglite at a guy like a tomahawk just as he made the corner of a project building. The light nailed the corner and detonated. It never worked again. My partner was inside and came running out because inside it sounded like I shot him.
Now I rely on my kindly Wilford Brimley like demeanor and a .45 pistol.
Next stop was the Air Force, where my only moves were a choke hold if I could get it, or a Motorola to the side of the head if I couldn't. They didn't call those radios "bricks" for no reason.
In the Bureau I've used OC spray but mostly kept to choke holds and radio strikes. Once I threw a D cell Maglite at a guy like a tomahawk just as he made the corner of a project building. The light nailed the corner and detonated. It never worked again. My partner was inside and came running out because inside it sounded like I shot him.
Now I rely on my kindly Wilford Brimley like demeanor and a .45 pistol.
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