Question on 9 mm Ammo for 39-2

[Rustywrench]

HI all, I am wondering what would have been a factory loading for my 1980 vintage 39-2. I do handload, so that is another topic, I just want to shoot my pistol with something that would be available when it was new. Bullet weight, etc. If it was LEO, what would be the ammo used?
Thanks all
Jeff.

 

[ralph7]

My guess for leo ammo would be the old Super Vel in a variety of bullet weights.

 

[GypsmJim]

I started casing about the time I bought my 39-2. So, I've never shot factory ammo.

I have used Lee 124 gr. RNTL boollits for 40 years. The 39-2 has run 100%. I used to use Bullseye, but with the current climate I have switched to W231.

 

[Pointblank2U]

Winchester Silvertips, but they've been upgraded since the original loading.

 

[TLFR]

It was designed to use 9mm Luger or Parabellum ammo. I use 115gr FMJ and for carry 124gr HP. If I remember after it's introduction many complained about the feeding of hollow point ammo and they polished their ramps. I never had the issue. 124gr cycles satisfactory in mine. I have read hotter loads are not good for the aluminum frame. I would not go up to 147gr.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I started casing about the time I bought my 39-2. So, I've never shot factory ammo.

I have used Lee 124 gr. RNTL boollits for 40 years. The 39-2 has run 100%. I used to use Bullseye, but with the current climate I have switched to W231.

I agree.

124 LRN over 3.5 grains of Bullseye.

 

[armadillo]

As I recall, the only factory hollow point ammo readily available 45-50 years ago was Remington (it was too hard and didn't expand) and Winchester Silver Tip (original stuff would expand too quickly and not penetrate enough).

I never got enough Super Vel 9mm to be sure it would feed. Someone gave me 1 bullet and I carried it in the chamber.

 

[HKSmith]

I bought a new Model 39 no dash in the mid 1960's and used it as one of my home defense and carry weapons for about 20 years. In 1980, I would have been using the S&W brand ammo, which was made in Rock Creek, OH. It had a 115 grain FMJ bullet with a flat nose at standard velocity. I believed the flat nose was an advantage, but didn't really have any evidence for that. That ammo hasn't been produced since about 1985, but I see it for sale at times at reasonable prices. So, if you want a real "1980 experience" with your 39-2 you could try some S&W ammo. I also used all the Remington, Federal, and W-W hardball standard pressure hardball ammunition at the time. I think the ballistics of this ammo is similar now to what it was then.

My 39 no dash was 100% reliable with hardball ammunition, but not with hollow points, so I never used them. I still have the gun, but haven't used it in several years.

 

[Alk8944]

The original ammunition my department issued for our Model 39-2s in the 1970s was a 124 gr.Winchester jsp, which I cannot recall what it was called.

 

[ispcapt]

My dept issued the 39 & 39-2 from 1967 until 1981 when we went to the 439.
For practice reloads we had a reloader at our main range. Dump cases in one bin, powder in another bin, bullets in another, and primers in a chute. Turn it on and it would spit out reloaded bullets - until it jammed. Then open it up and find out what caused the jam.
Our reload practice ammo was 115 gr semi WC full jacket. I don't recall what powder or amount we used. It clocked about 1150 fps. Picture attached.
During the 39/39-2 period we carried W-W 124 gr or 125 gr (don't recall now) round nose JSP.
In the late 70s went to the Federal 95 gr JSP. It was a flat nose. Picture attached.
In 1980 for just a couple of months we were issued the W-W 115 gr Silvertip.
After a shooting where the Silvertip that failed to perform miserably we immediately pulled it and were issued the Federal 115 gr BP JHP. Our range folks worked with Federal and they produced what was initially called the 9BPIL and became known as the Federal 115 BPLE. We didn't carry the 9BPIL very long in the 39/39-2 until we went to the 439.
The attached picture showing 3 different rounds are in the upper left the Federal 95 gr JSP, upper right corner, left is the W-W 115 JHP+P+ which wasn't issued until the later 1980s, upper right, right is the Federal 115 gr BPLE. The lower left is a S&W 115 gr JHP that we never carried or used for practice. This is an older photo I'd sent to someone and had included the S&W round as an example of what it looked like.

 

[stansdds]

Ispcapt, I always enjoy reading your posts regarding your experiences with the ISP.

In the last two decades of the 20th century, the Federal 9BPLE, a +P+ loading of their 115 grain JHP, was the best load for defense. It had an advertised velocity of 1300 fps and with a 4 inch barreled pistol, it usually made right around 1300 fps. At that velocity, those bullets would expand in a reliable fashion. The standard velocity load, 9BP, exited the muzzle at 1150 fps and it's expansion was not reliable. Those older JHP bullets really needed velocity in order to perform well.

In the 21st century, the Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber, and Speer Gold Dot bullets do not need nearly as much velocity in order to have reliable expansion. I still rely upon my old S&W 6946, thankfully I am not having to feed it +P or +P+ ammo, but with standard pressure 147 grain Federal HST ammo. With this ammo it is accurate, reliable, and the bullets should perform well if ever necessary.

 

[chief38]

If your M39 is an Aluminum frame I'd recommend you stay away from very hot or +P ammo. I have seen at least 2 ruined (friends guns) from very hot IMI loads back in the 1980's. The frames stretched and the pistols became unreliable.

 

[Model19man]

I had a Model 39 made in the 1960's so a little bit older than yours. I hand loaded all my rounds using Bullseye powder. I used FMJ's that were 100 grain and lead bullets from 100 - 140 grain. My pistol liked all of them. It was a pretty good one. Lost it in a burglary around 1988. Need to buy another one.

Bottom line those are the most easy to feed pistols ever. I think it will digest anything you feed it.

 

[prescobd]

In the late 70s went to the Federal 95 gr JSP. It was a flat nose
Ispcapt, do you recall how effective the 95 grain JSP loads were? I'm sure penetration against harden objects were not the greatest, but how effective were they against non-barricaded subjects?

 

[Rick H.]

Very interesting thread and entry by ISPcapt. I worked for the Wisconsin State Patrol and around 1986ish we went to the Ruger P-85 from our old S&W Model 66's. Initially we carried 115 Winchester Silvertips with a +P+ rating. I think we may have carried regular 115 Silvertips for a very short period of time before we went to the +P+ ammo. I still have some of that 115 grain +P+ ammo left and it has some serious speed to it, well over 1300 FPS as I recall. Checking my books, I found an average chronograph entry for 1417 FPS out of my P-210 American using the old 115 +P+ load. That's pretty fast in my book.

If I recall correctly we switched to the 127 grain Winchester bullet shortly after ISP had a problem with penetration using the 115 grain Silvertip. I thought this followed what ISP was doing, but maybe not. In any event with the 127 grain load in our Rugers we were obtaining an average speed of 1299 FPS from my data. This was also a +P+ load at the time. Unfortunately, I don't have dates for these results and they were shot using a Chrony chronograph. Ruger told us there was no problem using the Winchester +P+ 127 grain loads in our pistols so we continued to do so. By this time we had upgraded to the P-85 I think or perhaps the P-89. It should be noted that we didn't shoot the +P+ ammo routinely, only when we did our semi-annual qualification course. At best our people shot about 125 rounds of +P+ ammunition per year thru their service pistols. Otherwise we shot normal 115 grain ball ammo. The high grade ammunition is an expensive commodity and wasn't to be wasted.

I was at our Academy pulling armorer duty at in-service when I noticed frame cracking from the slide stop hole on some of the pistols troops turned in for inspection. Long story short, not long after we switched to Glock .40's. I was on the handgun selection committee and thought it was a mistake going to .40's for a host of reasons and wanted to stay with the 9mm, but no one listened to me at the time. Glock told us there was absolutely no problem using +P+ ammunition in their 9mm pistols, but the .40 S&W was the hot ticket at the time at least according to the big players, so that's what was selected. I never liked the .40 much at all especially when trying to train non-shooters to shoot in a relatively short time span.

Funny things happen I guess because a few years after I retired my old agency went back to the 9mm cartridge in their newly purchased Glock pistols. What goes around comes around I guess. I will have to chronograph some of our old +P+ duty ammo again and verify my results from years ago.

Rick H.

 

[stansdds]

If your M39 is an Aluminum frame I'd recommend you stay away from very hot or +P ammo. I have seen at least 2 ruined (friends guns) from very hot IMI loads back in the 1980's. The frames stretched and the pistols became unreliable.

When using NATO, +P, or +P+ 9mm ammo, one must replace the recoil spring frequently in order to prevent damage to the pistol.

 

[ispcapt]

In the late 70s went to the Federal 95 gr JSP. It was a flat nose
Ispcapt, do you recall how effective the 95 grain JSP loads were? I'm sure penetration against harden objects were not the greatest, but how effective were they against non-barricaded subjects?

For use against clothed individuals the 95 gr worked great in all the shootings I reviewed. It was going about 1400 fps out of our 39s. Seen some of the recovered bullets and they were like a nickle with a bump where the base of bullet. For a person working like our plain clothes folks who weren't likely to shoot against car bodies it was a great round. Where the 95 gr had problems was when a subject was inside a car. The 95 gr didn't do so well against windshields which along with being a bit tougher were also slanted.
Not the best against car doors. When we carried the 95 Federal in the late 1970s I suppose the 60-70 cars may have had tougher, thicker steel than today's cars. Also there's a lot of junk inside the car doors with motors, arms to raise the windows, etc. Maybe if you got lucky and missed all that inside junk only going thru the outer skin and inner panel might have been OK. Don't recall seeing anything on that. I've never been lucky at anything so I'd rather have a better round for that kind of work. Even then with my luck I'd hit the motor, the window arms, the inside door handle and the Zippo lighter and 1929 silver dollar the driver had in his pocket and the bullet would drop to the floor.

 

[Rick H.]

Okay, here are the results of my old departments duty ammo thru a Garmin chronograph. I tested these two products using two pistols. One was a CZ Shadow 2 Compact with a 4.1" barrel and the other was a Glock Model 34. I fired 10 rounds of each type thru each pistol and recorded the average.

CZ Shadow 2 Compact:

127 grain +P+= 1,266 FPS

115 grain +P+= 1,343 FPS


Glock G-34:

127 grain +P+= 1,347 FPS

115 grain +P+= 1,447 FPS

These results are commensurate with what I remembered from our Ruger P-series duty pistols. This was pretty fast ammunition back in the day and it's still pretty hot by todays standards. I know my Garmin chronograph is pretty accurate and almost never misses recording a shot. The old Chrony's weren't so reliable, or accurate. With my old agency both types of ammunition served us well, but the 127 grain load was favored by most people and no one complained when we went to it.

Rick H.

 

[Rock185]

ISP was the first major department I ever heard of that issued semi-auto pistols, and definitely the first I'd heard of issuing 9mm ammunition. It was mid '80s before the large department I worked for authorized 9mm semi-autos as optional primary weapons. So I'm always interested in what ispcapt posts on the subject. Over the years, I've shot, carried, chronographed quite a bit of the Federal 9BPLE and Winchester Ranger 115 and 127+P+. The chronographed velocities listed above are similar to velocities recorded in my guns. I've shot a fair amount in alloy framed S&W and SIG pistols; no damage to report thus far.

 

[shil]

Decades ago I had a 39-2. It went to my elder brother, who coveted it. Nice pistol. I'm toying with the idea of acquiring another. I found that, then, Winchester 100 grain Power Points fed reliably. I'm pretty sure that load is long gone. Full-jacketed ammo was flawless in feeding.