Question on rifle cartridge reloading

[lrrifleman]

@raljr1:

The WRA brass that is giving you problems when you seat primers probably had crimped primers, and the primer crimp needs to be removed. Don't trash that brass, you can sometimes remove the crimp with a reamer, or a primer pocket swager ( which I prefer).

You really don't want to swap cartridges between action styles. I suggest that you use one headstamp for gun A, another for gun B, and so on. I also won't shoot bolt gun reloads in a semi-auto or vice-versa, because every gun's chamber is different!

 

[rockquarry]

FWIW ... Continually bumping the shoulder short of 'your' headspace will lead to casehead separation. Necksizing 'your' fireformed brass is generally accepted to kick that can down the road.

I'm always eager to learn; if you've had personal experience in this area please describe (more than one incident). There can be an exception to any "rule" dependent on a variety of factors.

I've yet to see a case separation using the method I suggested. The brass will wear out long before you've bumped the shoulder too many times, if you can bump the shoulder too many times.

 

[Rogeronimo]

I'm always eager to learn; if you've had personal experience in this area please describe (more than one incident). There can be an exception to any "rule" dependent on a variety of factors.

I've yet to see a case separation using the method I suggested. The brass will wear out long before you've bumped the shoulder too many times, if you can bump the shoulder too many times.

Bumping the shoulder isn't in itself the issue ... excessive headspace creates the environment for casehead separation. . I'm not being argumentative, just adding to the virtues of avoiding full-length resizing brass that's been formed for a particular chamber. Yes, this is one reason neck-sized brass lasts longer.

Every opportunity the case has to move rearward toward the boltface with the shoulder pressed forward will thin the case above the web.

In summation, your procedure is spot on. Yes, if it won't go into battery, all other dimensions in spec, a slight bump is indeed required.

 

[Nevada Ed]

(I assume we're still on rifle brass here; I don't trim cases used in handguns.) I've always found slight variations in the length of cases following a trimming job.

However, I gauge all cases after sizing. Those that are under max. length, even if they're close to max length, don't get trimmed. Those cases over max. length are trimmed at approximately recommended trim length. As you can easily see, there is a lot of variation between newly trimmed cases and cases just under max. length in the same pile. I have a few accurate rifles and case length has never been a factor in assembling accurate loads.

Try this on your own: trim twenty cases to exactly the same length, load with a known accurate load and shoot four five-shot groups at 100 yards from a benchrest. Do the same with a batch of twenty cases with varying lengths. Advise if there is a difference in accuracy.

Don't crimp rifle cartridges unless they require a crimp for use in a certain type gun. If they require a crimp, cases must be trimmed to the same length for uniform results. I realize some handloaders claim a crimp promotes more complete combustion. I haven't seen this ever, but it's another test you can do yourself.

A crimp will seldom if ever contribute to an accuracy improvement. If the crimp is very light, the load may shoot as well as the uncrimped version, but it's very unlikely it will ever shoot better. Neck tension alone works fine.

.................

The only time I ever crimped a 30-06 reload, was when I loaded the 150 gr Remington Cor-Lokt SP that had a "Can" on it, for my deer hunting loads, to get maximum fps, with the powder, used.

95% of my bullets are "Smooth walled" or I don't crimp, if they have a "Can" on the bullet, usually a Hornady, bullet, to help the brass, last longer.

When my bolt starts to need more pressure to close, on a batch of cases, it is usually a sign that the case needs to be trimed or the shoulder, needs to be set back, after 4-5 target loads.

 

[muddocktor]

What Rogeronimo said. ^^^^^^ I've seen casehead separation personally with my 264 Mag, before I got myself a neck sizer die. And yes, after neck sizing for a while I do need to do a full sizing, pushing the shoulder back a little bit for for easy chambering. And also yes, even with neck sizing only, I still have to occasionally trim the brass back because it's gotten over max length, but much less. The reason I like a neck sizer die instead of just backing off my full sizing die is that way I never have to touch the adjustment ring on either die, just screw it into the press and get after it.

One other thing I have found with high pressure bottleneck cases is that annealing the case mouth occasionally helps tremendously with case life. My 264 Mag for example, brass is both hard to find and expensive. So I buy 7mm Rem Mag brass and run it through my 264 full size die and reform it (same case dimensions except for neck). Before starting to anneal my brass, the 7mm stuff would crack in the neck area after just a few reloadings. After annealing the brass, I get just as good a case life as with my 264 Mag brass. The resizing of the neck from 7mm to 6.5 mm was work hardening the neck area.

 

[Miracle Man]

Just reloading my first batch of 30-06 cartridges. I have sorted all of my empties by manufacturer, and loaded up about 10 with a loading that a friend made for me years ago that proved accurate. 53.5 grains of 4350 behind 165 grain Hornady SSTs. I'll shoot those and if all goes well, I have a few hundred more to load.

My question has to do with case length. The book says 2.494 max length and 2.484 trimmed length. I checked them after sizing, and had about 2 boxes that were all at 2.490. I left those as it. Others that were over that, I trimmed back to the 2.484 length. in a few cases the trimmer cut them a couple thousandths of an inch shorter. Is that an issue? Also, how much variation in length is acceptable for general hunting or target practice load? is a few thousandths variation in length worth fussing over?

Thanks

Raljr,

You can get way off in the weeds reloading HP rifle cartridges for a bolt gun. Tons of gadgets, tons of time involved, and a lot of money.

As far as case length goes. Be worried about cases that are too long. That can and will cause dangerous pressure. The strength and camming action of the bolt will actually pin the case mouth into the chamber/throat and the bullet has a hard time exiting the chamber! Pressure will spike!

Short cases, as long as they're not crazy short, aren't a problem. 2.480 or something in there, you'll be fine.

And by the way. I've shot a ton of 30-06 with dozens of different bullets and dozens of powders. And IMR 4350 wins the accuracy competition hands down in a bunch of rifles including mine.

 

[venomballistics]

Not sure if your comment is directed at me or not. If it is, please educate me, that's why I'm here.

My intent is to have unifomity in my loaded rounds, without needlessly trimming cases. Even when I trim them, I am ending up with a couple thousandths of length variation. So my question revolved around whether case length or uniformity is more critical.

Robert

The purpose of trimming is to avoid a high pressure situation caused by the case mouth getting pinned between the bullet and the end of the chamber. Your runout is of little consequence in your intended roles. it just has to avoid the pressure issue.

in my own experience with the same cartridge, I had developed a subsonic load using a cast lead bullet. Powder choice was a little "off the reservation"
Brass was mixed and only trimmed if needed. some might have called it junk
My results were 1050 fps with an extreme velocity spread of 13 and a single digit standard deviation.
this was benchrest competition kind of figures out of a plinking round.
The components you choose and the development work mean more.

 

[smoothshooter]

Unless you are planning to join the bench rest gang, shorter than minimum recommended case lengths will work OK for most any purpose and it won't harm anything. Longer than maximum recommended case lengths could cause chambering problems. Also (unless you are a bench rest shooter), using all the same headstamped cases and weight matching them doesn't buy you much in the way of performance improvement. But if it makes you feel better to segregate cases, then do it. The single most important factor (at least regarding ammunition reloading) in achieving the best grouping performance is finding the optimum seating depth for any specific bullet you are using in your specific rifle. It will vary for different rifles and bullets. e.g., a reload which groups very tightly in rifle A may group poorly in rifle B of the same caliber. Also every type and weight of bullet will require a different seating depth in the same rifle.

It is sometimes amazing how much difference seating depth can make in group sizes. Even a quarter turn of the bullet seater threaded stem one way or another can shrink or open up group sizes 30 to 50 percent.
Optimum depth will vary from gun to gun, and even load to load.

 

[rockquarry]

It is sometimes amazing how much difference seating depth can make in group sizes. Even a quarter turn of the bullet seater threaded stem one way or another can shrink or open up group sizes 30 to 50 percent.
Optimum depth will vary from gun to gun, and even load to load.

Hard to imagine anyone not experimenting with seating depth. Usually trying three depths will give you the the best one but sometimes it takes a little more work.

 

[Tim Stapp]

In my .308 match bolt action rifle that my uncle built with a minimum to SAAMI spec chamber, I found that brass length was extremely important as was full length sizing. Because it is chambered to minimum specifications, full length sizing was basically neck sizing with a slight bump on the shoulder.


With a Sierra 168 Match bullet, the rifle was capable of MOA accuracy at the 600 yard firing line (I'm not capable, but my buddy was). Using my rifle, my ammo: he beat my 17 10 or X's. He shot a clean 200 with MY RIFLE AND MY AMMO!!!


Bottom line is this: Consistancy is key to accuracy.

 

[Greyman50]

Robert, have a primer pocket swager you can borrow, will be at the show at Clay Co. Fairgrounds. Call me to remind me to bring it.
David

 

[cmj8591]

You're loading for pump action, which is like loading for a semi-auto, so your case prep should be all about reliability. That means full length resizing. If you neck size for that gun, eventually you will have a round that will not chamber even if you are using cases originally fired in that gun. As for sizing affecting accuracy, you have to be realistic about that. A really good 760 is a 1 1/2 inch gun on a good day. The accuracy difference that you realize from neck sizing and case trimming for that matter, is not within your guns margin of error. In your case, crimp is important to keep the bullet seated when it's getting shoved from the magazine into the chamber. The biggest problem you will run into with trying to crimp cases of different lengths is that if you have one that is substantially longer, you can create a bulge in the neck that will keep it from chambering. A Lee Factory Crimp die will eliminate that problem and is a good investment. With the Lee die case length is not critical. If you decide to go with a roll crimp from your seating die, you might get better results if you seat the bullet then do the crimp in a separate operation. Your goal should be to get your finished reloads as close as possible to factory dimensions as you can.

 

[toad67]

Much better advice than using a neck sizing die. Assuming you have a bolt-action rifle, your full-length size die is all you need for best brass life. Expounding a little on what DWalt recommended... Size brass just enough that the bolt closes with SLIGHT resistance. This is just a fraction short of full-length sizing.

After about four or five such sizings, the bolt closing will become more difficult and you will need to adjust the die to bump the shoulder a bit. Trial-and-error work; that may be a full-length sizing or may be just under a full-length sizing depending on the chamber, etc. Then go back to partial sizing. Good luck-

Once you have your die set up for F/L sizing, go down to your hardware store and buy a 7/8" machine washer. That way you can F/L resize if you need to, or remove the die and place the washer for neck sizing only, no more die adjusting.

 

[rockquarry]

Once you have your die set up for F/L sizing, go down to your hardware store and buy a 7/8" machine washer. That way you can F/L resize if you need to, or remove the die and place the washer for neck sizing only, no more die adjusting.

I've never tried that, but suspect it will not work in many instances; too much variation in chambers. Also, many normally use a Co-Ax press for loading rifle cartridges. The washer won't work at all with a Co-Ax setup.

However, to give the idea a fair shake, I'll try it (when I think about it) using my Big Max or Ultra Mag single stage presses.

 

[toad67]

I've never tried that, but suspect it will not work in many instances; too much variation in chambers. Also, many normally use a Co-Ax press for loading rifle cartridges. The washer won't work at all with a Co-Ax setup.

However, to give the idea a fair shake, I'll try it (when I think about it) using my Big Max or Ultra Mag single stage presses.

Never thought about different presses, but you could possibly add another washer for larger chambers. An old timer told me that trick and it works great on my Rock Chucker for my stuff.

 

[rockquarry]

Never thought about different presses, but you could possibly add another washer for larger chambers. An old timer told me that trick and it works great on my Rock Chucker for my stuff.

I've found this to work perfectly when using the same dies for .38 Special and .357 Magnum. RCBS includes (or used to, anyway) a washer that is put in place between the die and press when going from the .38 Special case to the slightly longer .357. The spacing washer is .122" thick as measured with a micrometer, not caliper.

 

[Imissedagain]

For every caliber we load, there are one or two cases that are kept in the die box, that are trimmed to the exact length that is best. This allows the Lyman Universal trimmer to be setup properly.
Pistol and Rifle be they straight or bottle necks.
Crimp or just remove the flare as necessary.
I do firm up the case mouth a wee bit for all autos that are taper crimps.
Bolt and single shots get neck sized and full length when necessary.
Consistency most often leads to accuracy.

For decades, nothing gets loaded without the case length being measured. Four decimal Mitutoyo digital caliper used now.
Still scoop and weigh powder, even with the 550, which only loads 45/380 ACPs.

Ain't in a hurry to miss.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have a point of view that when I pick up a round, I want it to fit any gun chambered for it! So I use Small Base dies on 30-06, 308 & 223, and FL on everything else.

Ivan

 

[rockquarry]

I have a point of view that when I pick up a round, I want it to fit any gun chambered for it! So I use Small Base dies on 30-06, 308 & 223, and FL on everything else.

Ivan

I do it a little differently if I have several rifles chambered for the same cartridge. I've yet to find a need for small base dies for any rifle. I size for the tightest chamber using a full length die, adjusted to to where the loaded cartridge closes with slight resistance in a bolt-action gun.

Done in such a manner, the cartridges will work fine in everything else. Usually, and as it should be, the difference in chambers dimensions are very small, or that's been my experience.

 

[zeke]

Most my rifle shooting is with 308. Bolts, semi's and a lever thrown in for good measure. 2 of the semi's have generous cut chambers, 2 have tighter chambers. 2 of the bolts are headspaced to be a very slight crush fit on brand new brass.

Being 308's, segregation of brass makes can be very beneficial as there is significant differences in brass weight/volume that reflects corresponding differences in muzzle velocity's. Imo, this matters when using near max charges, when specific charge weights are used for accuracy and when using loading manuals to try new loads. Am not experienced in the 30-06. When any of a batch being used approaches max case length, they all get trimmed down to minimum.

n the 308's owned, the brass fired in the looser chambers must be small based sized to be reliable/or fit in the rest of the rifles. While have specific segregated loadings for the several target rifles, also keep a stock of rounds that will work in any of the rifles owned.

In 2 of the target rifles owned, once fired brass comes out with a very slightly shorter base to shoulder datum than factory fresh. Some batches of brass used specifically for these rifles are neck sized for several loadings.

Am also using range pickups to supplement the 223 general use stock pile, though the there are several 5 gal pails that will out last me. Have found there is not the variation of case weights as 308, but any range pick ups get sb sized before use. Learnt the hard way when had to body size a batch of loaded rounds.

Ime, there is a considerable difference in 308 chambers between a FAL military cut, and a CZ 550 target. What procedure/tools people use can differ based on a multitude of factors. Always good idea to know options.