Questions about my S&W DA 45 revolver

[mikeinhistory]

Hello. I asked around about this pistol in another forum and was directed here. I believe this is a commercial DA 45 that was refinished. I was told that the "star" on the pommel of the grip shows this. It is very devoid of markings, unlike my other S&W's, it does not even have the logo and trademark on it. The serial numbers and crane assembly numbers also match. Anyway, thank you for any information you can give me.

 

[DWalt]

First, it appears the revolver was returned to the factory for some kind of service in 5/26 (at least it looks like 26 to me), by the stamping on the left grip frame. Not necessarily re-bluing, however - could be any repair work. The star on the butt means the same thing.

Second, it would likely be from the 1917-1920 period, as I see no S&W logos on the frame or sideplate. Grips are from much later, post-1969. SN does not indicate military, so probably from post-WWI, 1919-20. Also, no "Made in USA" stamp, therefore, definitely pre-1923.

As a guess, I doubt it has been re-blued. I don't see the typical Diamond and B or S or rectangle with R S stampings which would indicate a factory refinish. Others with more knowledge than I will probably comment.

 

[Modified]

From those pictures my initial impression is that the finish is original. The star could indicate just about anything.

The one gun of mine with a star that the historical foundation could give me information on started out life Blue, was Nickeled, then the nickel removed and a Re-Blue done by the factory, along with one repair to the extractor and a tune up along with new sight installation. I suspect more has been done to it because I don't have the documents related to the sight installation yet, so more stuff could have been done to it at the factory.

All that and the only marking on it is the Star, not even a date. So your gun may have that star and date on it for something as simple as a tune up.


You have a very handsome gun, I'd be proud to own it, but I would start looking around for some more appropriate grips to put on it. I think with a set of correct stocks or even nice aged stags you will have an extremely attractive gun on your hands, that should be a real pleasure to shoot if it is anything like my 1917s.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

This revolver is odd in that the serial number is about 2/3's of the way through the military production serial numbers.

The end of the hammer stud is flattened, which is usually an indication of a re-blue. However, the rest of the gun looks like original finish.

 

[hardscrabble]

That SN doesn't make sense on a 1917. That's right in the middle of the military production range. Is it possible that you have a 45DA barrel on a 44 frame from the period, as DWalt pointed out, in which frames did not receive the trade mark? Somebody who is more familiar those 44 HE SN's will probably comment shortly, but one way to get a little further along with an ID is to look and see if the SN on the cylinder matches the one on the butt of the frame, and look to see if the barrel has a SN on it at all. No SN, or a different SN on the cylinder likely indicates a change, as does the lack of SN on the barrel. It doesn't "smell" like a 1917 to me...but there are experts here who can probably help.

 

[hardscrabble]

Nope, not in the 44HE range either.

 

[DWalt]

I didn't say anything, but I also thought the SN couldn't be right for that time, especially on a civilian gun. 104052 (without the post-WWII S prefix) couldn't exist on an N-frame of that period unless it was military, and this one does not appear to be. Perhaps an un-numbered wartime frame that was re-numbered sometime after the war? But that doesn't make much sense either. Maybe a civilian gun produced within the military SN range? That would be interesting. Anyone ever heard of that happening? Lack of S&W logo and "Made in USA" stampings definitely date the frame from the 1917-22 period, plus the 5/26 return for service stamp, make it impossible to have been made after that date. Barrel and cylinder SNs might help, but no matter what they are, the frame SN remains a mystery. Definitely a candidate for a factory letter.

 

[mikeinhistory]

That SN doesn't make sense on a 1917. That's right in the middle of the military production range. Is it possible that you have a 45DA barrel on a 44 frame from the period, as DWalt pointed out, in which frames did not receive the trade mark? Somebody who is more familiar those 44 HE SN's will probably comment shortly, but one way to get a little further along with an ID is to look and see if the SN on the cylinder matches the one on the butt of the frame, and look to see if the barrel has a SN on it at all. No SN, or a different SN on the cylinder likely indicates a change, as does the lack of SN on the barrel. It doesn't "smell" like a 1917 to me...but there are experts here who can probably help.

Hello. Thanks for the info. The barrel, the cylinder and the frame all have matching serial numbers.

Would these types of grips be correct?

 

[DWalt]

I don't think so - those are more the type for the decade of the 1930s. Military grips were smooth and without medallions.
Grips of the 1911-1920 period are somewhat similar to the pair shown, but with recessed gold medallions, not silver. Any SN on the back side of the right panel?
There is more thinking to do about that SN, especially if all numbers match. There are two more places to look for matching SNs. First, the rear surface of the yoke. Look through a chamber using a flashlight. Second, on the rear surface of the extractor star.

It appears to be chambered for .45 ACP. Can you verify that?

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

Your entire grip frame doesn't show the area where the re-finish stamp might be, but here's what it looks like for a re-finished nickel:

Photo thx to Masterpiece.

 

[mikeinhistory]

I don't think so - those are more the type for the decade of the 1930s. Military grips were smooth and without medallions.
Grips of the 1911-1920 period are somewhat similar to the pair shown, but with recessed gold medallions, not silver. Any SN on the back side of the right panel?
There is more thinking to do about that SN, especially if all numbers match. There are two more places to look for matching SNs. First, the rear surface of the yoke. Look through a chamber using a flashlight. Second, on the rear surface of the extractor star.

It appears to be chambered for .45 ACP. Can you verify that?

Yes, it is in .45 acp for sure. I have fired it before. As to the other info, I will have to take a look at it tomorrow.

 

[mikeinhistory]

Welcome to the forum.

Your entire grip frame doesn't show the area where the re-finish stamp might be, but here's what it looks like for a re-finished nickel:

Photo thx to Masterpiece.

This is the only other mark under the grips on the frame.

 

[Hondo44]

Hello. Thanks for the info. The barrel, the cylinder and the frame all have matching serial numbers.

Would these types of grips be correct?

Yes those are the correct grips for a commercial gun from the pre 1920 period except they would have the recessed gold plated over brass medallions (as DWalt posted), and slightly dished wood surface around them. Here's a lousy picture:

After ~1920 they would be the same as your grips shown with the rounded tops, but w/o any medallions at all.

 

[Hondo44]

This is the only other mark under the grips on the frame.

Those are inspector or assembler stamps.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Hello. I asked around about this pistol in another forum and was directed here. I believe this is a commercial DA 45 that was refinished. I was told that the "star" on the pommel of the grip shows this. It is very devoid of markings, unlike my other S&W's, it does not even have the logo and trademark on it. The serial numbers and crane assembly numbers also match. Anyway, thank you for any information you can give me.

I would seem to be a very unexpected 'Commercial' version of the m1917 Revolver, who's Serial Number would place it - as others have said - about 2/3rds of the way in mid-production.

And for being an apparent Commercial example, is also unusually sans the S & W emblem.

I think you really should get this one 'Lettered'.

It may have been something ordered in-house or done up for presenting to some favored person, or as a special order from some favored person.

 

[Hondo44]

1917 PRODUCTION SUMMARY EXCERPTS:

1917 SERIAL NUMBERS:
Military 1917s are in the range #1 thru # 169959 which were completed in 1918.
That's not to say there were none sold into the commercial market before that; there are 'no rules' that apply.

As usual with S&W, not all numbers were used.
Unused serial numbered frames preceding and following #169959 were assembled thru # 209791 in 1946.
Some were assembled into commercial model 1917s with very varied shipping dates, 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejectors, and military 1917s to fill contracts for the Brazilian government in 1936 and 1946.

S&W LOGO:
War time 1917s did not have S&W trademark logos. If a 1917 has the S&W trademark on the frame it is a commercial gun, from at least after ~ 1920.

"I believe the years for "No-Logo" on any S&W guns is 1917-1920/21.

"We see large logos on the Brit contract 455's thru late 1916. We see logos on the large batch of 455 TL's built in late 1916 to clean up parts and sold commercially.

"Production started on the 1917 in March, 17, and they have no logos. S&W was constantly hounded for more production by the Gov't. Eventually, using the possibility of Bolshevik inspired labor problems, the Gov't seized the [S&W] factory in Aug, 1918. The machine for rolling logos had long been inactive by then, and POSSIBLY converted to some other use or pushed into a corner and buried. S&W does not get control again till Jan, 1919. We see little and slow production thru most of 1919. It gets better in 1920. Guns shipped in 1919 and 1920 usually lack logos. Some guns shipped in 1921 MAY lack them."
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

COMMERCIAL 1917s:
"The factory did not add the 1917 as a regular cataloged model until Catalog D-2 which was issued in Jan, 1921.
Same basic gun as a 1917 Army.
No Army or US Property marks.
5-1/2" in cal 45 ACP, but the barrel reads "S.&W. D.A. 45".
Bright Blue.
Butt Swivel.
S&W logo on left side.
Checkered non-medallion grips during the 1920s."
Lee Jarrett

NOTE:
In 1933 at about serial # 185,000 a hammer block was added to this model.

 

[DWalt]

"Yes those are the correct grips for a commercial gun from the pre 1920 period except they would have the recessed gold plated over brass medallions (as DWalt posted), and slightly dished wood surface around them."

Were silver medallions ever used in the WWI era? I haven't seen anything other than the "deep dish" gold medallions. And it has not been established that the pictured grips are original to the revolver or not. Are they?

"Military 1917s are in the range #1 thru # 169959 which were completed in 1918.
That's not to say there were none sold into the commercial market before that; there are 'no rules' that apply."

As I earlier said, the evidence indicates that this could well be a commercial 1917 made up in the midst of WWI military production, and having a SN in the military range. And in fact, I doubt it could be anything else. If so, it may be a rarity, possibly a singular specimen, and well worth lettering. Nothing would have prevented S&W from making up commercial 1917s for civilian sale, at least in the pre-Army control period, but I don't know if it actually happened. What SNs exist (if any) in known early commercial M1917 revolvers that could be close to this one?

 

[Hondo44]

No, I agree, there were no medallions other than the 'deep dish' gold used during the ~1910 to 1920 period.

The grips pictured in Mike's #8 post with silvers didn't come with the gun, as I understood him. I may be wrong, I thought he was just asking if they'd be right for the gun.

Based on what I know and posted, I think you're entirely correct as you posted earlier, it can almost be nothing else but a commercial 1917 produced between 1918 and ~ 1920, with an unused (on a military gun), wartime 1917 serial number.

I would definitely letter that gun as well.

"What SNs exist (if any) in known early commercial M1917 revolvers that could be close to this one?"
I don't know. That would make an excellent subject of a new thread!

 

[umwminer]

Early 1917 Commercial

I have one w/ SN 172860. Has the small trade mark below the thumb latch and hammer stud . No markings at all on the R side of the frame .

 

[mikeinhistory]

No, I agree, there were no medallions other than the 'deep dish' gold used during the ~1910 to 1920 period.

The grips pictured in Mike's #8 post with silvers didn't come with the gun, as I understood him. I may be wrong, I thought he was just asking if they'd be right for the gun.

Based on what I know and posted, I think you're entirely correct as you posted earlier, it can almost be nothing else but a commercial 1917 produced between 1918 and ~ 1920, with an unused (on a military gun), wartime 1917 serial number.

I would definitely letter that gun as well.

"What SNs exist (if any) in known early commercial M1917 revolvers that could be close to this one?"
I don't know. That would make an excellent subject of a new thread!

Yes, the grips I pictured on their own did not come with the revolver, the grips that are on it in the pictures came with it. I have those grips from off of my "Brazilian" contract when I put smooth wooden grips on it.

Well,I guess I'll get on getting it lettered. This seems like one of the most interesting pieces I've picked up in a long time. When I saw it and bought it I thought it was odd, but I had no idea it was this unusual. I just knew it was different from my other DA 45's.

 

[mikeinhistory]

Would these grips be more appropriate?

 

[DWalt]

Those would be the smooth military grips used on most military S&W M1917s. Probable correct ones for yours would be as shown in posting #13. But it is possible that 1920s style grips might have come with yours from the factory. Those have no medallions but otherwise are much the same as those having the gold medallions.. The silver-medallioned grips in your picture would likely be correct for a 1930s M1917.

 

[mikeinhistory]

Cool. Thanks, DWalt.

 

[mikeinhistory]

Got a chance to take it apart and look at all the numbers on it. The frame serial number is 104053 and it matches the barrel and cylinder. The inside of the crane matches on both sides, as well as the number on the arm. The side panel serial matches these numbers as well. It's number is 65604. So it seems to me all the numbers that should match do. I've also included pictures of every mark on the revolver that isn't a serial number or the model and patents from the barrel. I sent out a request for a letter from S&W so hopefully that will not too long to get back to me.

Thanks again everyone for all the information.

 

[mikeinhistory]

Also, here are the rear sights. I think someone asked. They are the rounded style, not the more square style.

 

[DWalt]

Allegedly, the letter turnaround time is approximately 4 months. Please come back and publish it when received. It could be interesting to many. Did you include pictures in the letter request?

 

[mikeinhistory]

Yes I did include pictures. My last one took about 6 so I'm not too optimistic about 4 months. Yes, I will certainly publish what they have to say.

 

[Hondo44]

Mike if you have a 1937 contract Brazilian with flattened top strap, it didn't come with smooth grips; the checkered grips you pictured with silver medallions that came on it are correct for it. Is there a serial # on the back side of the right grip that matches your Brazilian? Most of the 1946 contract Brazilians came with smooth grips but some came with checkered grips as well.

Those pictures show government inspector marks which confirm it was a military made frame but not stamped with Army Model 1917 and US Property. So it was built as a commercial gun.

 

[mikeinhistory]

Oh, that is interesting. All the pictures I had seen they M37s all had smooth grips. I guess I'll put those back on then.

 

[hardscrabble]

Mike, if you would, please post something to this thread so those of us who are interested can subscribe and won't miss the fun when you receive your letter. You have a really interesting revolver there.

Did you acquire this recently? I keep getting this sneaking suspicion I have seen it before.