R&S Recoil Buffers for a 4006TSW

[DAOTSWGUY]

I'm working on a cool project right now that involves taking a basically new 4006TSW CHP flavor and making it my primary pistol. I would expect this pistol be be just shy of 10K rounds by the end of this year. In the past 3 weeks I am already 1600 rounds in and have already replaced the recoil spring once with the factory 17LB weight. Having previously cracked a frame on one of these exact pistols in the past (go to my post history if you want to know more) I'm not taking any chances. I will be replacing the recoil spring every 1000 rounds (I know that sounds excessive but I have 20 brand new factory springs just sitting around) and then I stumbled across these R&S products recoil buffers today. I have experience using these in beretta 96 pistols in the past. Any one use these in a 4006? Love them? Hate them? I already have some on order but if they are junk they were cheap enough it won't bother me to just not use them. Thanks!

 

[BMCM]

Some stuff to consider...

Those recoil buffer things that fit around the recoil spring only insulate/cushion the slide's spring box from striking the frame's impact abutment inside the dust cover at the very end of rearward slide travel. They are also well known for causing problems. Some guns run just fine with a buffer, some do not. The fact is they do short stroke the slide.

The few cracked forties I've seen were cracked through adjacent to the frame's barrel camming lugs. This is where the mating lugs on the barrel smack the frame within the first quarter inch of slide travel.

Such a recoil buffer has zero effect on how hard the barrel impacts the frame camming lugs. The barrel hits those lugs right after unlocking. Whereas the buffer only softens impact of the slide to frame at the end of rearward travel. There's no buffer device I am aware of that cushions the barrel impacting the frame.

You'd be better served springing up the gun to lessen slide velocity at the beginning of travel. So, increased recoil spring force at breech closed installed length and perhaps an increased power mainspring. (the mainspring actually exerts more effect over initial slide velocity than the recoil spring does).

Cheers
Bill

 

[DAOTSWGUY]

Some stuff to consider...

Those recoil buffer things that fit around the recoil spring only insulate/cushion the slide's spring box from striking the frame's impact abutment inside the dust cover at the very end of rearward slide travel. They are also well known for causing problems. Some guns run just fine with a buffer, some do not. The fact is they do short stroke the slide.

The few cracked forties I've seen were cracked through adjacent to the frame's barrel camming lugs. This is where the mating lugs on the barrel smack the frame within the first quarter inch of slide travel.

Such a recoil buffer has zero effect on how hard the barrel impacts the frame camming lugs. The barrel hits those lugs right after unlocking. Whereas the buffer only softens impact of the slide to frame at the end of rearward travel. There's no buffer device I am aware of that cushions the barrel impacting the frame.

You'd be better served springing up the gun to lessen slide velocity at the beginning of travel. So, increased recoil spring force at breech closed installed length and perhaps an increased power mainspring. (the mainspring actually exerts more effect over initial slide velocity than the recoil spring does).

Cheers
Bill

Thanks for the reply! I'm a little hesitant to run extra power springs. I was running Wolff 18 or 19LB springs in my first 4006TSW when the frame cracked. While I agree that it is the camming action of the slide opening that can put stress on the lugs, I think it also put wear on it when closing with the extra velocity the slide will have with the extra power springs. Or am I way off base?

 

[UltimaRatio]

I'm interested in this thread. I'd also like to see if I could run a 4006TSW CHP as a primary pistol. Any tips or tricks on tuning and setting it up for longevity are much appreciated.

 

[stansdds]

A heavier recoil spring will not do a whole lot to delay unlocking of the barrel or the rearward velocity of the slide during recoil, but it will impart more energy into the slide as it moves forward, slamming the barrel into lock up with more force. That extra force is going to be transmitted into the slide stop pin and the pin holes in the receiver. If you want to slow the rearward velocity of the slide without hammering the slide stop, a heavier hammer spring will do just that. A heavier hammer spring will make it harder for the slide to overcome the resistance of the hammer to be pushed back during recoil.

 

[chief38]

I view recoil buffers as a non necessary item that is a solution to a problem that does not exist - kind of like replacing a 1911 guide rod with an after market full length one. They also restrict your pistol from the full recoil travel they were designed for which might cause feeding issues. If and when they get deformed they could also jam your pistol up. I regularly shoot auto loading pistols that are well over 100 years old. None have recoil buffers and none are cracked or damaged. I own many pistols that have extensive round counts (over 60,000 - 70,000 - 80,000 maybe more) that never had a buffer and are just fine. If they were required or benefited a pistol I believe they would come with new guns.

IMHO if a pistol cracks prematurely it is because of poor design, poor QC, poor metallurgy or improper ammo being used. Just my opinion - YMMV.

 

[stansdds]

During my USPSA days, I often ran a buffer in my 1911. They do shorten the distance the slide will travel and in the 1911, that means you likely must use a longer ejector and there is the possibility of the recoil spring's coils touching each other, which creates a whole new can of worms. A buffer that begins to disintegrate can bind up the slide and buffers often need to be changed very frequently. In short, they were ok for a pistol that would only be used on a target range, but I would not use them in a pistol that I relied upon for more serious uses.

 

[DAOTSWGUY]

A heavier recoil spring will not do a whole lot to delay unlocking of the barrel or the rearward velocity of the slide during recoil, but it will impart more energy into the slide as it moves forward, slamming the barrel into lock up with more force. That extra force is going to be transmitted into the slide stop pin and the pin holes in the receiver. If you want to slow the rearward velocity of the slide without hammering the slide stop, a heavier hammer spring will do just that. A heavier hammer spring will make it harder for the slide to overcome the resistance of the hammer to be pushed back during recoil.

That's what I thought. Well I guess I will stick to the every 1000 round factory recoil spring and hope for the best.

 

[stansdds]

That's what I thought. Well I guess I will stick to the every 1000 round factory recoil spring and hope for the best.

Replacing the recoil spring every 1000 rounds is probably overkill, but recoil springs are cheap, broken slides and receivers are expensive or even irreplaceable.

 

[UltimaRatio]

That's what I thought. Well I guess I will stick to the every 1000 round factory recoil spring and hope for the best.

Are you not going to try the hammer spring?

I personally would run the buffer. Worst case it short strokes and you take it out. Best case it removes one stress point (rearward impact of slide) without making a second (slide return impact) worse. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

 

[DAOTSWGUY]

Are you not going to try the hammer spring?

I personally would run the buffer. Worst case it short strokes and you take it out. Best case it removes one stress point (rearward impact of slide) without making a second (slide return impact) worse. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

No to the hammer spring, gonna keep it all factory weight recoil spring or otherwise. I will give the buffers a try and if they don't mess with function I will run them.

 

[Warren Sear]

My opinion is to stay with factory weight springs, and never use buffers.

IIRC, and for what it is worth, in 50 years of shooting, I have replaced 2 recoil springs. I have quite a few guns that are over 100 years old with original springs that still work reliably.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I view recoil buffers as a non necessary item that is a solution to a problem that does not exist - kind of like replacing a 1911 guide rod with an after market full length one. They also restrict your pistol from the full recoil travel they were designed for which might cause feeding issues. If and when they get deformed they could also jam your pistol up. I regularly shoot auto loading pistols that are well over 100 years old. None have recoil buffers and none are cracked or damaged. I own many pistols that have extensive round counts (over 60,000 - 70,000 - 80,000 maybe more) that never had a buffer and are just fine. If they were required or benefited a pistol I believe they would come with new guns.

IMHO if a pistol cracks prematurely it is because of poor design, poor QC, poor metallurgy or improper ammo being used. Just my opinion - YMMV.

x2!!!!!.........None of mine were designed from the factory to use buffer.s........They are a waste of $$$.

 

[Fastbolt]

Ammunition is a critical factor to consider when thinking about normal wear & tear on a pistol. 'Hotter' loads that increase slide velocity can affect things.

I got over being interested in buffers in the 90's, when I saw how chewed up some of them could become, and how the chewed up bits & pieces could migrate inside the gun. I also disliked how the slide travel was reduced, which could have an effect on extraction/ejection. I tried harder (advertised for 10mm at that time) and softer buffer materials. Since I only carry and shoot for self defense, and not gaming or leisure target shooting, I stopped using buffers.

I tend to lean toward the more conservative end of things for recoil spring replacement. I also consider what any gun maker might recommend for a working/defensive gun. In my full-size and compact S&W's I started replacing the recoil springs about every 2500-3000rds fired. This was when S&W was recommending recoil spring replacement every 5000rds fired. Before using a round-count recommendation, they simply told us to inspect free length, compared to a new spring, and replace when it was 3-4 coils shorter, or when functioning indicated it may be needed. In my subcompact 3rd gens (CS45 & CS9), every 800-1200rds. Probably overkill in frequency, but that was when I was ordering new springs 5-10 at a time.


To quote one of the armorer instructors for another gun company, fresh springs help keep guns alive.

 

[DAOTSWGUY]

Ammunition is a critical factor to consider when thinking about normal wear & tear on a pistol. 'Hotter' loads that increase slide velocity can affect things.

I got over being interested in buffers in the 90's, when I saw how chewed up some of them could become, and how the chewed up bits & pieces could migrate inside the gun. I also disliked how the slide travel was reduced, which could have an effect on extraction/ejection. I tried harder (advertised for 10mm at that time) and softer buffer materials. Since I only carry and shoot for self defense, and not gaming or leisure target shooting, I stopped using buffers.

I tend to lean toward the more conservative end of things for recoil spring replacement. I also consider what any gun maker might recommend for a working/defensive gun. In my full-size and compact S&W's I started replacing the recoil springs about every 2500-3000rds fired. This was when S&W was recommending recoil spring replacement every 5000rds fired. Before using a round-count recommendation, they simply told us to inspect free length, compared to a new spring, and replace when it was 3-4 coils shorter, or when functioning indicated it may be needed. In my subcompact 3rd gens (CS45 & CS9), every 800-1200rds. Probably overkill in frequency, but that was when I was ordering new springs 5-10 at a time.


To quote one of the armorer instructors for another gun company, fresh springs help keep guns alive.

Mostly I will be shooting 125gr Speer lawman frangible good quality and mostly mild stuff. Worst thing I could do is put the 165gr lawman TMJ threw it as it is a 1 for 1 to the GDHP 165GR my preferred 40 S&W carry load. But for this pistol it will be the 180 gr speer GDHP just to be a little easier on the pistol.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

If you want to slow the rearward velocity of the slide without hammering the slide stop, a heavier hammer spring will do just that. A heavier hammer spring will make it harder for the slide to overcome the resistance of the hammer to be pushed back during recoil.

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Agreed.
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The heavier main/hammer spring will also increase the trigger pull strength required, most noticeably the DA pull & to a lesser degree the SA's pull.

I have a heavier main/hammer spring on my 1013 for the above reason. (Compare green circled to the blue circled readings below)

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[stansdds]

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Agreed.
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The heavier main/hammer spring will also increase the trigger pull strength required, most noticeably the DA pull & to a lesser degree the SA's pull.

And that is more proof that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[DAOTSWGUY]

The recoil buffers suck by the way, pistol malfed (first ever with this example) on the 5th round and "ate" the buffer. Would not recommend to answer my own question from the beginning.