Rare 1923 DWM commercial Luger...

[bc1023]

I picked this up last week. I found it at my local shop in superb condition. As you would expect on a commercial model, all parts match. 30 Luger is the caliber.

Here's some info:

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...6AEwDQ#v=onepage&q=1923 stoeger luger&f=false

Less than 1000 were built. They were produced for export to the United states after WWI. I'm not a Luger collector or historian, but this is one of the nicest vintage examples I've ever seen.

 

[italiansport]

Nice find and you are correct. While commercial lugers are commonplace Stoeger marked American Eagle ones are rare.
Jim

 

[federali]

Great Find

She's a beauty.Enjoy it. I had an "arsenal re-finished" (whatever that means) military Luger and the gun was totally reliable with ball ammo.

 

[Cyrano]

A Stoeger American Eagle Luger is a rare bird.

 

[2152hq]

I'd take a second very hard look at that pistol and it's markings before deciding it was an AF Stoeger.
Just my .02.

 

[bc1023]

I'd take a second very hard look at that pistol and it's markings before deciding it was an AF Stoeger.
Just my .02.

Um, I did that before I bought it, not after.

Yes, everything is right. Even the serial number matches the description in the link, as do all the tell tale signs. It's the real deal for sure. Trust me, I found it hard to believe too.

 

[gm272gs]

If you plan to shoot it, get a new firing pin and set the one with the matching last two digits of serial number aside. Firing pins on those tend to break, and it would be a shame for the numbers to not all match.

 

[2152hq]

Um, I did that before I bought it, not after.

Yes, everything is right. Even the serial number matches the description in the link, as do all the tell tale signs. It's the real deal for sure. Trust me, I found it hard to believe too.

Just my opinion, and take it for what it's worth,,
The American Eagle symbol was roll die imprinted on the originals. There were 4 different dies used w/slight differences in them. Some research will come up with images of them and their differences.

But all were clear die mark impressions.
The American Eagle on the pistol has either been re-cut by hand,,or perhaps entirely etched in place.
There is no sharp detail to it .
Lines go here and there, feather patterns don't match, the stars in the area above the Eagles head are plainly delicate 5 point stars in the original impressions. These are simple dots. The arrows and olive branch aren't correct. ,,ect.
Google Amer/Eagle images and study the impression carefully and see the detail that is missing here, replaced with thick blurred lines.

IMO it's either a re-done/recut image,,or an added image to enhance a plain between the wars Luger.
The AF Stoeger 1923 is a rare one,,
It is probably the most faked Luger around.
Could be real and redone too.
Just take a real good look at markings including the Germany and AFS markings. Rolldie, stamp, or pantograph? Before bluing, after bluing? it all makes a difference.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have a commercial luger in that age range, mine is very plain jane and dirt common. I know just enough about them to maybe be dangerous, but I am inclined to agree with 2152 above. Maybe it is just the photo, but that eagle doesn't look kosher to me.

 

[bc1023]

Just my opinion, and take it for what it's worth,,
The American Eagle symbol was roll die imprinted on the originals. There were 4 different dies used w/slight differences in them. Some research will come up with images of them and their differences.

But all were clear die mark impressions.
The American Eagle on the pistol has either been re-cut by hand,,or perhaps entirely etched in place.
There is no sharp detail to it .
Lines go here and there, feather patterns don't match, the stars in the area above the Eagles head are plainly delicate 5 point stars in the original impressions. These are simple dots. The arrows and olive branch aren't correct. ,,ect.
Google Amer/Eagle images and study the impression carefully and see the detail that is missing here, replaced with thick blurred lines.

IMO it's either a re-done/recut image,,or an added image to enhance a plain between the wars Luger.
The AF Stoeger 1923 is a rare one,,
It is probably the most faked Luger around.
Could be real and redone too.
Just take a real good look at markings including the Germany and AFS markings. Rolldie, stamp, or pantograph? Before bluing, after bluing? it all makes a difference.

The Stoeger import rollmark is perfect, as is the Germany stamp. The Eagle shows as much detail as any 1923 I was able to scrounge off Google. I did notice some variations between the 1923 eagle and that stamped on some earlier versions, especially in the olive branch and the arrows. All other markings are correct, including the crown above the "N".

As for the photo, its a iPhone image magnified to the max, which distorts the resolution. Using a magnifying glass, the "dots" are most definitely stars.

Google 1923 American Eagle Luger and you'll see exactly what I'm saying. You'll even see the "dots" if you zoom in on the low res photos.

Just Googling "American Eagle Images" is not going to cut it. You need to zoom in just like I did and see exactly what's stamped on the guns themselves.

I'd also like to see an image of a "faked" 1923 American Eagle Stoeger. I'm not saying it never happened, but all the stamps seems like a hell of a lot of work to go through for a gun that, as rare as it is, isn't worth a whole hell of a lot more than a standard commercial Luger.

As for rarity, under 1000 is rare, but I've got many handguns a heck of a lot more rare than that.


Also, debates like this are generally what PMs are for.

 

[daddy bear]

When I was a high school kid, in the fifties, I had an often broke uncle that would offer me his handgun of the time for a loan. I had my own small livestock operation and usually had a few dollars stashed. Two that I distinctly remember loaning him money on were a Colt's SAA in .38-40 with bone stocks and a .30 Stoger Luger with the American eagle stamped on the receiver. I was a little kinder to him than a pawn shop, as I only shot up his ammunition rather than charge interest. He actually defaulted on the agreed upon time on the Luger. I should have kept it, but when he had the cash to redeem it, I hated to see a relative whine and let him redeem it. Neither of us knew what we had at the time.

Such is life,

Jack

 

[J D Boyle]

FAKE!!!!! NO Doubt about it.

[/URL]

Fake! No doubt about it. Still, I'd be willing to take it off of your hands. Cover your expenses, you know? Just the kind of guy I am.

 

[Larks]

The American Eagle on the pistol has either been re-cut by hand,,or perhaps entirely etched in place.
There is no sharp detail to it .
Lines go here and there, feather patterns don't match, the stars in the area above the Eagles head are plainly delicate 5 point stars in the original impressions. These are simple dots. The arrows and olive branch aren't correct. ,,ect.
Google Amer/Eagle images and study the impression carefully and see the detail that is missing here, replaced with thick blurred lines.

.

where are you seeing the eagle to say this? I can't see one in the pic's provided by the OP.

But nice find BC

 

[kenv1950]

Here is a authentic one,yours looks to good to be true, 30 cal. German Luger import

 

[bc1023]

Here is a authentic one,yours looks to good to be true, 30 cal. German Luger import

Good Lord

Too good to be true? What the hell does that mean? Yours is "authentic" because its got more wear? Give me a friggen break.

Its a commercial Luger. This one didn't see hard times. I have guns older than it in nicer shape, actually. They sat in a sock drawer for decades. It happens.

Are these all too good to be true as well? They're in nicer shape than mine.

Exceptionally Rare DWM Model 1923 American Eagle Commercial Artillery Luger Pistol with A. F. Stoeger New York Retailer Markings

Rare 1923 Stoeger Model DWM American Eagle Luger with Rare A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster

Outstanding and Rare DWM 1923 "American Eagle" Luger with Desirable A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster

 

[Absalom]

Good Lord

Too good to be true? What the hell does that mean? Yours is "authentic" because its got more wear? Give me a friggen break.

Its a commercial Luger. This one didn't see hard times. I have guns older than it in nicer shape, actually. They sat in a sock drawer for decades. It happens.

Are these all too good to be true as well? They're in nicer shape than mine.

With all due respect, but if you put up a comparatively rare gun like this for show and tell, you need to develop a thicker skin.

And no, debates like this are not what PM's are for, this is exactly what the forum is for. This isn't just for attaboys, this is a forum for discussion.

Now I have no expertise whatsoever in regards to these Lugers, which is why I'm reading this thread with great interest, both your presentation and the doubts raised by some others. Obviously, some critics can rather easily be disregarded, others seem to know what they are talking about.

So don't get all defensive. You're not trying to sell us the gun. I'm still waiting for someone from either side to snip some real close-ups of the bird to illustrate what they think they're seeing.

I find this discussion quite educational.

 

[bc1023]

With all due respect, I've been collecting many, many years and own well over a half million dollars worth of rare handguns. I also have a lot of current stuff as well. I don't need thicker skin. I do just fine the way I am and don't change much at this stage of my life.

A guy made a ridiculous comment and I commented back. Enough said. It's all part of the "discussion".

Good day.

 

[Darkenfast]

Bc1023, I've been a follower of your famous carpet pics both here and elsewhere for some time. If you say it's real, it's real. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[bc1023]

Bc1023, I've been a follower of your famous carpet pics both here and elsewhere for some time. If you say it's real, it's real. Thanks for sharing it.

Thanks, my friend. The gun matches every sign in the book, right down to the serial number and "GELADEN" extractor. All rollmarks are correct.

 

[locsmb]

Beautiful. I certainly admire the various pieces you have acquired as I've seen here and a few other forums where you post. Your collection is what has helped me along fuel my own little accumulation of firearms that interest me.

It certainly helped me as I started buying my 1911s. It is partly responsible for what I refer to as my "backward progression" in my appreciation for firearms. Your collection of benellis and the like has reinvigorated my love for some of the vintage auto pistols in terms of the way they were built to their aesthetics. So I started out with the modern "wonder-nines" in the late 90s, then "regressed" (imho in a good way) to 1911s.

Of late, I've been combing my local haunts for older styled autos and even am looking to add a few revolvers (both double and preferably single action) to my stash. The only thing is I don't have the capability to buy something purely for "collecting". What I buy, I should be able to shoot without worrying about reducing its value in terms of collectability.

I look forward to more pics of your wonderful collection.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[bc1023]

Beautiful. I certainly admire the various pieces you have acquired as I've seen here and a few other forums where you post. Your collection is what has helped me along fuel my own little accumulation of firearms that interest me.

It certainly helped me as I started buying my 1911s. It is partly responsible for what I refer to as my "backward progression" in my appreciation for firearms. Your collection of benellis and the like has reinvigorated my love for some of the vintage auto pistols in terms of the way they were built to their aesthetics. So I started out with the modern "wonder-nines" in the late 90s, then "regressed" (imho in a good way) to 1911s.

Of late, I've been combing my local haunts for older styled autos and even am looking to add a few revolvers (both double and preferably single action) to my stash. The only thing is I don't have the capability to buy something purely for "collecting". What I buy, I should be able to shoot without worrying about reducing its value in terms of collectability.

I look forward to more pics of your wonderful collection.

Thanks for sharing.

As always, I appreciate the kind words. As a side note, I shoot almost everything I buy. Unless it's unfurled in the box, you won't hurt value by putting a few rounds down range.

 

[Richard Simmons]

FWIW I have no idea if the OP's Luger is legit or not but it sure is nice to look at!!

 

[clang444]

where are you seeing the eagle to say this? I can't see one in the pic's provided by the OP.

But nice find BC

+1 Where is this eagle stamp? Like many here, Lugers are something I know almost nothing about, so please help edumacate us and maybe you can inspire a few more people to be collectors.

Ideally, I would like to see a clear shot from the OP and another picture from someone that questions its authenticity on what they think it should look like.

 

[bigl1911]

As a very highly active buying collector, I always worry about fakes with certain guns like Pythons as an example and in general boxes. I've stayed away from Lugers (I have a few) mainly because they require a very high degree of knowledge and or expert help if one is to buy in a smart way. There is an earlier post questioning authenticity on the OP's gun. I can't say the pistol is legit or authentic; however with certain Lugers it is not uncommon to see faked guns. The OP's pistol is a beautiful gun and condition alone is not a proof of a fake (I have a Luger 1900 army contact that looks fresh out of the factory yesterday); however I suggest having the gun inspected by an expert if this has not be done already and if there is even a slight thought it is not be what it is suppose to be it should be.

 

[Art Doc]

Gentlemen, I am not an expert on Lugers by any means. I am thinking that the owner seems to know what he's doing, and he's actually holding the gun in his hands. If he is convinced that it is correct, even if I was an expert I would not argue with him based on what I may or may not see in photographs.

That's just my 2¢.

 

[2152hq]

Good Lord

Too good to be true? What the hell does that mean? Yours is "authentic" because its got more wear? Give me a friggen break.

Its a commercial Luger. This one didn't see hard times. I have guns older than it in nicer shape, actually. They sat in a sock drawer for decades. It happens.

Are these all too good to be true as well? They're in nicer shape than mine.

Exceptionally Rare DWM Model 1923 American Eagle Commercial Artillery Luger Pistol with A. F. Stoeger New York Retailer Markings

Rare 1923 Stoeger Model DWM American Eagle Luger with Rare A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster

Outstanding and Rare DWM 1923 "American Eagle" Luger with Desirable A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster

Since you've deleted the close-up pic of the Am/Eagle on your pistol,,there is no more comparison to be done here.

But of the three examples you've posted, numbers 2 and 3 are excellent examples to view for comparison purposes.. for you.
Look beyoud just the image of the eagle. Look at the individual lines, their placement, number, direction, width, ect.
You can easily see the big difference in the images.

All I've pointed out still holds true.

As to ser# range,,,,all it takes is a so called 'alphabet Luger' of Weimar Era mfg in the correct 'letter block' to be turned into an A.F.Stoeger.
Your source says 'n, p, q' are the correct letter blocks.

BTW you can add the 'u' and 't' letter blocks to that list..as #2 & #3 of the examples you cited as originals are from those blocks. That's of course if you can believe it.
With another 13,500 numbers available in the Commercial numbering (no letter prefix) that the AFS Lugers supposedly may have come from,,that's a lot of Lugers for the fakers to choose from.

Don't think refinish isn't an option either. There are plenty of skilled people out there that can re-do a Luger and the best collectors unknowingly have them proudly in their displays as original.
Freshly stamped with matching numbers, Mfg'r markings, proofs and all.
'My God,,it looks like the day it was made!! What a find...'

A lot of money to fake one??,,No,not really.
Lots of profit motive.
Even Ralph Shattuck got hooked by the Bulgarian Navy issue Luger fake..

A Blue Book can be helpful but isn't always the best teacher.
Sorry you took it the wrong way.My apologies.

 

[bc1023]

Since you've deleted the close-up pic of the Am/Eagle on your pistol,,there is no more comparison to be done here.

But of the three examples you've posted, numbers 2 and 3 are excellent examples to view for comparison purposes.. for you.
Look beyoud just the image of the eagle. Look at the individual lines, their placement, number, direction, width, ect.
You can easily see the big difference in the images.

All I've pointed out still holds true.

As to ser# range,,,,all it takes is a so called 'alphabet Luger' of Weimar Era mfg in the correct 'letter block' to be turned into an A.F.Stoeger.
Your source says 'n, p, q' are the correct letter blocks.

BTW you can add the 'u' and 't' letter blocks to that list..as #2 & #3 of the examples you cited as originals are from those blocks. That's of course if you can believe it.
With another 13,500 numbers available in the Commercial numbering (no letter prefix) that the AFS Lugers supposedly may have come from,,that's a lot of Lugers for the fakers to choose from.

Don't think refinish isn't an option either. There are plenty of skilled people out there that can re-do a Luger and the best collectors unknowingly have them proudly in their displays as original.
Freshly stamped with matching numbers, Mfg'r markings, proofs and all.
'My God,,it looks like the day it was made!! What a find...'

A lot of money to fake one??,,No,not really.
Lots of profit motive.
Even Ralph Shattuck got hooked by the Bulgarian Navy issue Luger fake..

A Blue Book can be helpful but isn't always the best teacher.
Sorry you took it the wrong way.My apologies.

I'll tell you what. You produce a 1923 American Eagle, blow up the eagle and the import marks and we'll do some comparing. Put your money where your mouth is. Until then, it's game over.

By the way, I did the comparison you speak of. The eagle lines are identical. Until you produce one and blow it up, it's a moot point. Once you blow up the image to that degree, all those neat little lines in the feathers and other areas don't look so neat any longer.

My gun does not look like "the day it was made". The lighting glare on the photos is deceiving. It even has some honest wear. The bluing is original and the roll marks have been there since before it was done. I've been collecting rare/older guns for decades and I know the difference.

 

[Larks]

I'll tell you what. You produce a 1923 American Eagle, blow up the eagle and the import marks and we'll do some comparing. Put your money where your mouth is. Until then, it's game over.

By the way, I did the comparison you speak of. The eagle lines are identical. Until you produce one and blow it up, it's a moot point. Once you blow up the image to that degree, all those neat little lines in the feathers and other areas don't look so neat any longer.

My gun does not look like "the day it was made". The lighting glare on the photos is deceiving. It even has some honest wear. The bluing is original and the roll marks have been there since before it was done. I've been collecting rare/older guns for decades and I know the difference.

BC, I don't doubt you or your knowledge and experience for a minute and I congratulate you on what seems to be a wonderful find!!

I would love to see this eagle that you're talking about though as I don't really understand what it is you are both talking about. Do you have a photo that you can post for the sake of educating a few of us who are quite interested in this or are you concerned that it's just going to cause more angst? If so I don't really blame you for leaving it out of the thread.

How can the guy doubting you be comparing the eagle when we can't see one in the photos anyway? Was there one in the earlier posts that you've had to remove?

 

[CptCurl]

I have an interest in Lugers, but I make no claim to be an expert.

I do find discussions such as this to be very informative. How can we learn if we don't make comparisons and discuss facts and opinions?

There is a tendency for these discussions to become emotional. That's a shame. Remember we are only talking about a machine, not somebody's first-born.

It harms the discussion for the eagle image to have disappeared from the first post.

When the issue of authenticity arose, I did download the eagle image so I could compare with other eagle images on the internet as suggested. This informative discussion is destroyed without that image. Here is the image of the American Eagle that was posted in the original post and then taken down:

Curl

 

[CajunBass]

Hey. That carpet looks familiar. Ummmmmm...

Great find Bac. As usual.

Gone back and read the entire thread now. To be honest, if Bac told me that was a Colt Single Action Army, I'd take his word for it.