As always, I appreciate the kind words. As a side note, I shoot almost everything I buy. Unless it's unfurled in the box, you won't hurt value by putting a few rounds down range.
Rare 1923 DWM commercial Luger...
- Thread starter bc1023
- Start date
As always, I appreciate the kind words. As a side note, I shoot almost everything I buy. Unless it's unfurled in the box, you won't hurt value by putting a few rounds down range.
Richard Simmons
Member
FWIW I have no idea if the OP's Luger is legit or not but it sure is nice to look at!!
+1 Where is this eagle stamp? Like many here, Lugers are something I know almost nothing about, so please help edumacate us and maybe you can inspire a few more people to be collectors.
Ideally, I would like to see a clear shot from the OP and another picture from someone that questions its authenticity on what they think it should look like.
bigl1911
Member
As a very highly active buying collector, I always worry about fakes with certain guns like Pythons as an example and in general boxes. I've stayed away from Lugers (I have a few) mainly because they require a very high degree of knowledge and or expert help if one is to buy in a smart way. There is an earlier post questioning authenticity on the OP's gun. I can't say the pistol is legit or authentic; however with certain Lugers it is not uncommon to see faked guns. The OP's pistol is a beautiful gun and condition alone is not a proof of a fake (I have a Luger 1900 army contact that looks fresh out of the factory yesterday); however I suggest having the gun inspected by an expert if this has not be done already and if there is even a slight thought it is not be what it is suppose to be it should be.
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Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Gentlemen, I am not an expert on Lugers by any means. I am thinking that the owner seems to know what he's doing, and he's actually holding the gun in his hands. If he is convinced that it is correct, even if I was an expert I would not argue with him based on what I may or may not see in photographs.
That's just my 2¢.
That's just my 2¢.
Since you've deleted the close-up pic of the Am/Eagle on your pistol,,there is no more comparison to be done here.
But of the three examples you've posted, numbers 2 and 3 are excellent examples to view for comparison purposes.. for you.
Look beyoud just the image of the eagle. Look at the individual lines, their placement, number, direction, width, ect.
You can easily see the big difference in the images.
All I've pointed out still holds true.
As to ser# range,,,,all it takes is a so called 'alphabet Luger' of Weimar Era mfg in the correct 'letter block' to be turned into an A.F.Stoeger.
Your source says 'n, p, q' are the correct letter blocks.
BTW you can add the 'u' and 't' letter blocks to that list..as #2 & #3 of the examples you cited as originals are from those blocks. That's of course if you can believe it.
With another 13,500 numbers available in the Commercial numbering (no letter prefix) that the AFS Lugers supposedly may have come from,,that's a lot of Lugers for the fakers to choose from.
Don't think refinish isn't an option either. There are plenty of skilled people out there that can re-do a Luger and the best collectors unknowingly have them proudly in their displays as original.
Freshly stamped with matching numbers, Mfg'r markings, proofs and all.
'My God,,it looks like the day it was made!! What a find...'
A lot of money to fake one??,,No,not really.
Lots of profit motive.
Even Ralph Shattuck got hooked by the Bulgarian Navy issue Luger fake..
A Blue Book can be helpful but isn't always the best teacher.
Sorry you took it the wrong way.My apologies.
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I'll tell you what. You produce a 1923 American Eagle, blow up the eagle and the import marks and we'll do some comparing. Put your money where your mouth is. Until then, it's game over.
By the way, I did the comparison you speak of. The eagle lines are identical. Until you produce one and blow it up, it's a moot point. Once you blow up the image to that degree, all those neat little lines in the feathers and other areas don't look so neat any longer.
My gun does not look like "the day it was made". The lighting glare on the photos is deceiving. It even has some honest wear. The bluing is original and the roll marks have been there since before it was done. I've been collecting rare/older guns for decades and I know the difference.
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BC, I don't doubt you or your knowledge and experience for a minute and I congratulate you on what seems to be a wonderful find!!
I would love to see this eagle that you're talking about though as I don't really understand what it is you are both talking about. Do you have a photo that you can post for the sake of educating a few of us who are quite interested in this or are you concerned that it's just going to cause more angst? If so I don't really blame you for leaving it out of the thread.
How can the guy doubting you be comparing the eagle when we can't see one in the photos anyway? Was there one in the earlier posts that you've had to remove?
CptCurl
Member
I have an interest in Lugers, but I make no claim to be an expert.
I do find discussions such as this to be very informative. How can we learn if we don't make comparisons and discuss facts and opinions?
There is a tendency for these discussions to become emotional. That's a shame. Remember we are only talking about a machine, not somebody's first-born.
It harms the discussion for the eagle image to have disappeared from the first post.
When the issue of authenticity arose, I did download the eagle image so I could compare with other eagle images on the internet as suggested. This informative discussion is destroyed without that image. Here is the image of the American Eagle that was posted in the original post and then taken down:
Curl
I do find discussions such as this to be very informative. How can we learn if we don't make comparisons and discuss facts and opinions?
There is a tendency for these discussions to become emotional. That's a shame. Remember we are only talking about a machine, not somebody's first-born.
It harms the discussion for the eagle image to have disappeared from the first post.
When the issue of authenticity arose, I did download the eagle image so I could compare with other eagle images on the internet as suggested. This informative discussion is destroyed without that image. Here is the image of the American Eagle that was posted in the original post and then taken down:
Curl
Hey. That carpet looks familiar. Ummmmmm...
Great find Bac. As usual.
Gone back and read the entire thread now. To be honest, if Bac told me that was a Colt Single Action Army, I'd take his word for it.
Great find Bac. As usual.
Gone back and read the entire thread now. To be honest, if Bac told me that was a Colt Single Action Army, I'd take his word for it.
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I have an interest in Lugers, but I make no claim to be an expert.
I do find discussions such as this to be very informative. How can we learn if we don't make comparisons and discuss facts and opinions?
There is a tendency for these discussions to become emotional. That's a shame. Remember we are only talking about a machine, not somebody's first-born.
It harms the discussion for the eagle image to have disappeared from the first post.
When the issue of authenticity arose, I did download the eagle image so I could compare with other eagle images on the internet as suggested. This informative discussion is destroyed without that image. Here is the image of the American Eagle that was posted in the original post and then taken down:
Curl
Once again, do the same thing to another 1923 American Eagle Luger. Magnify it all the way in with an iPhone and then scale it back.
We still don't have another image to compare it with and I'm waiting for 2152 to put his money where his mouth is.
italiansport
Member
Here are two more pictures while we're at it...
I personally think you Luger is fine. However I am in no way an expert and if you want a definitive answer I'd recommend you post it over on Jan Still's Luger forum where the real experts reside. I suspect you'll get an answer in short order.
Jim
Activity Stream - Jan C Still Luger Pistols Central Powers Axis Pistols Discussion Boards From Gunboards.com
Here are some images for 1923 American Eagle Lugers. While I'm sure much better cameras were used as compared to my cell phone, I'm trying to see all this extra detail.
However, until we can get another and magnify the image all the way in so we can see every wayward line and mark, its not going to mean anything.
However, until we can get another and magnify the image all the way in so we can see every wayward line and mark, its not going to mean anything.
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Well, this one looks different then the OPs:
Rare 1923 Stoeger Model DWM American Eagle Luger with Rare A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster
The eagle's body between the shield and the tail feathers has 3 cross hatches on it while the one posted here looks to be recessed.
The RIA auction with the gold washed eagle also looks to have cross hatches while the other RIA auction looks more like the OPs.
I have no idea which is the real one. This is getting to be about as much fun as determining if a Colt box is real or not.
Rare 1923 Stoeger Model DWM American Eagle Luger with Rare A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster
The eagle's body between the shield and the tail feathers has 3 cross hatches on it while the one posted here looks to be recessed.
The RIA auction with the gold washed eagle also looks to have cross hatches while the other RIA auction looks more like the OPs.
I have no idea which is the real one. This is getting to be about as much fun as determining if a Colt box is real or not.
If you would go those RockIsland auction links you posted (#15) and have refered to several times and instead of simply clicking on the picture of the top of the pistols shown,,just take your cursor and hold it over the pic and the Am/Eagle. It will give you a very large and clear detailed photo of the image.
The one on the Artillery doesn't help much as it's partially obscured by the site and the pic is dark. #'s 2 and 3 in you post, as I already pointed out show the A/E beautifully. Plus these are from the same period.
There are at least 4 different dies shown to have been used starting from the early preWWI period. But the detail differences are small and most people wouldn't notice them.
If you can't by side by side comparison see the obvious differences, ,,,then it's not necessary to go any further.
Everything here so far has been pics you've provided,,and they easily show the differences if you know what to look for. I've tried to tell you what those small details are and what methods were used to make them,,both originally and not.
It's supposed to be a discussion,but I guess not. Then no one learns a thing.
Good Day.
..."I'm not a Luger collector or historian, but this is one of the nicest vintage examples I've ever seen."...
The one on the Artillery doesn't help much as it's partially obscured by the site and the pic is dark. #'s 2 and 3 in you post, as I already pointed out show the A/E beautifully. Plus these are from the same period.
There are at least 4 different dies shown to have been used starting from the early preWWI period. But the detail differences are small and most people wouldn't notice them.
If you can't by side by side comparison see the obvious differences, ,,,then it's not necessary to go any further.
Everything here so far has been pics you've provided,,and they easily show the differences if you know what to look for. I've tried to tell you what those small details are and what methods were used to make them,,both originally and not.
It's supposed to be a discussion,but I guess not. Then no one learns a thing.
Good Day.
..."I'm not a Luger collector or historian, but this is one of the nicest vintage examples I've ever seen."...
Every one of those pictures was from a supposed 1923 AE Luger, not a pre-WWI model. Some are different than others.
Until you provide what I'm asking for and we can compare apples to apples, this discussion has zero merit anyway. I consider it over.
Good day.
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CptCurl
Member
In post #15 above, there are three links to Rock Island auction sales. For the best side-by-side comparison, here are crops of the eagles in each auction. Detail is somewhat lacking, but this is what was there.
Here's the eagle on the artillery from the first link:
Exceptionally Rare DWM Model 1923 American Eagle Commercial Artillery Luger Pistol with A. F. Stoeger New York Retailer Markings
Here's the eagle from the second link:
Rare 1923 Stoeger Model DWM American Eagle Luger with Rare A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster
Here's the eagle from the third link:
Outstanding and Rare DWM 1923 "American Eagle" Luger with Desirable A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster
And here's the OP's eagle:
Finally, for what it's worth, here's a detail of the eagle on my Model 1900 I posted some years ago at this thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear...r-variety-dwm-1900-american-eagle-7-65mm.html
It's an interesting discussion. I am no expert at all. I wouldn't be able to differentiate a genuine 1923 Stoeger from a fake, and I certainly express no opinion as to the authenticity of the OP's Luger.
Curl
Here's the eagle on the artillery from the first link:
Exceptionally Rare DWM Model 1923 American Eagle Commercial Artillery Luger Pistol with A. F. Stoeger New York Retailer Markings
Here's the eagle from the second link:
Rare 1923 Stoeger Model DWM American Eagle Luger with Rare A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster
Here's the eagle from the third link:
Outstanding and Rare DWM 1923 "American Eagle" Luger with Desirable A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster
And here's the OP's eagle:
Finally, for what it's worth, here's a detail of the eagle on my Model 1900 I posted some years ago at this thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear...r-variety-dwm-1900-american-eagle-7-65mm.html
It's an interesting discussion. I am no expert at all. I wouldn't be able to differentiate a genuine 1923 Stoeger from a fake, and I certainly express no opinion as to the authenticity of the OP's Luger.
Curl
