Rare 1923 DWM commercial Luger...

[bc1023]

I picked this up last week. I found it at my local shop in superb condition. As you would expect on a commercial model, all parts match. 30 Luger is the caliber.

Here's some info:

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...6AEwDQ#v=onepage&q=1923 stoeger luger&f=false

Less than 1000 were built. They were produced for export to the United states after WWI. I'm not a Luger collector or historian, but this is one of the nicest vintage examples I've ever seen.

 

[italiansport]

Nice find and you are correct. While commercial lugers are commonplace Stoeger marked American Eagle ones are rare.
Jim

 

[federali]

Great Find

She's a beauty.Enjoy it. I had an "arsenal re-finished" (whatever that means) military Luger and the gun was totally reliable with ball ammo.

 

[Cyrano]

A Stoeger American Eagle Luger is a rare bird.

 

[2152hq]

I'd take a second very hard look at that pistol and it's markings before deciding it was an AF Stoeger.
Just my .02.

 

[bc1023]

I'd take a second very hard look at that pistol and it's markings before deciding it was an AF Stoeger.
Just my .02.

Um, I did that before I bought it, not after.

Yes, everything is right. Even the serial number matches the description in the link, as do all the tell tale signs. It's the real deal for sure. Trust me, I found it hard to believe too.

 

[gm272gs]

If you plan to shoot it, get a new firing pin and set the one with the matching last two digits of serial number aside. Firing pins on those tend to break, and it would be a shame for the numbers to not all match.

 

[2152hq]

Um, I did that before I bought it, not after.

Yes, everything is right. Even the serial number matches the description in the link, as do all the tell tale signs. It's the real deal for sure. Trust me, I found it hard to believe too.

Just my opinion, and take it for what it's worth,,
The American Eagle symbol was roll die imprinted on the originals. There were 4 different dies used w/slight differences in them. Some research will come up with images of them and their differences.

But all were clear die mark impressions.
The American Eagle on the pistol has either been re-cut by hand,,or perhaps entirely etched in place.
There is no sharp detail to it .
Lines go here and there, feather patterns don't match, the stars in the area above the Eagles head are plainly delicate 5 point stars in the original impressions. These are simple dots. The arrows and olive branch aren't correct. ,,ect.
Google Amer/Eagle images and study the impression carefully and see the detail that is missing here, replaced with thick blurred lines.

IMO it's either a re-done/recut image,,or an added image to enhance a plain between the wars Luger.
The AF Stoeger 1923 is a rare one,,
It is probably the most faked Luger around.
Could be real and redone too.
Just take a real good look at markings including the Germany and AFS markings. Rolldie, stamp, or pantograph? Before bluing, after bluing? it all makes a difference.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have a commercial luger in that age range, mine is very plain jane and dirt common. I know just enough about them to maybe be dangerous, but I am inclined to agree with 2152 above. Maybe it is just the photo, but that eagle doesn't look kosher to me.

 

[bc1023]

Just my opinion, and take it for what it's worth,,
The American Eagle symbol was roll die imprinted on the originals. There were 4 different dies used w/slight differences in them. Some research will come up with images of them and their differences.

But all were clear die mark impressions.
The American Eagle on the pistol has either been re-cut by hand,,or perhaps entirely etched in place.
There is no sharp detail to it .
Lines go here and there, feather patterns don't match, the stars in the area above the Eagles head are plainly delicate 5 point stars in the original impressions. These are simple dots. The arrows and olive branch aren't correct. ,,ect.
Google Amer/Eagle images and study the impression carefully and see the detail that is missing here, replaced with thick blurred lines.

IMO it's either a re-done/recut image,,or an added image to enhance a plain between the wars Luger.
The AF Stoeger 1923 is a rare one,,
It is probably the most faked Luger around.
Could be real and redone too.
Just take a real good look at markings including the Germany and AFS markings. Rolldie, stamp, or pantograph? Before bluing, after bluing? it all makes a difference.

The Stoeger import rollmark is perfect, as is the Germany stamp. The Eagle shows as much detail as any 1923 I was able to scrounge off Google. I did notice some variations between the 1923 eagle and that stamped on some earlier versions, especially in the olive branch and the arrows. All other markings are correct, including the crown above the "N".

As for the photo, its a iPhone image magnified to the max, which distorts the resolution. Using a magnifying glass, the "dots" are most definitely stars.

Google 1923 American Eagle Luger and you'll see exactly what I'm saying. You'll even see the "dots" if you zoom in on the low res photos.

Just Googling "American Eagle Images" is not going to cut it. You need to zoom in just like I did and see exactly what's stamped on the guns themselves.

I'd also like to see an image of a "faked" 1923 American Eagle Stoeger. I'm not saying it never happened, but all the stamps seems like a hell of a lot of work to go through for a gun that, as rare as it is, isn't worth a whole hell of a lot more than a standard commercial Luger.

As for rarity, under 1000 is rare, but I've got many handguns a heck of a lot more rare than that.


Also, debates like this are generally what PMs are for.

 

[daddy bear]

When I was a high school kid, in the fifties, I had an often broke uncle that would offer me his handgun of the time for a loan. I had my own small livestock operation and usually had a few dollars stashed. Two that I distinctly remember loaning him money on were a Colt's SAA in .38-40 with bone stocks and a .30 Stoger Luger with the American eagle stamped on the receiver. I was a little kinder to him than a pawn shop, as I only shot up his ammunition rather than charge interest. He actually defaulted on the agreed upon time on the Luger. I should have kept it, but when he had the cash to redeem it, I hated to see a relative whine and let him redeem it. Neither of us knew what we had at the time.

Such is life,

Jack

 

[J D Boyle]

FAKE!!!!! NO Doubt about it.

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Fake! No doubt about it. Still, I'd be willing to take it off of your hands. Cover your expenses, you know? Just the kind of guy I am.

 

[Larks]

The American Eagle on the pistol has either been re-cut by hand,,or perhaps entirely etched in place.
There is no sharp detail to it .
Lines go here and there, feather patterns don't match, the stars in the area above the Eagles head are plainly delicate 5 point stars in the original impressions. These are simple dots. The arrows and olive branch aren't correct. ,,ect.
Google Amer/Eagle images and study the impression carefully and see the detail that is missing here, replaced with thick blurred lines.

.

where are you seeing the eagle to say this? I can't see one in the pic's provided by the OP.

But nice find BC

 

[kenv1950]

Here is a authentic one,yours looks to good to be true, 30 cal. German Luger import

 

[bc1023]

Here is a authentic one,yours looks to good to be true, 30 cal. German Luger import

Good Lord

Too good to be true? What the hell does that mean? Yours is "authentic" because its got more wear? Give me a friggen break.

Its a commercial Luger. This one didn't see hard times. I have guns older than it in nicer shape, actually. They sat in a sock drawer for decades. It happens.

Are these all too good to be true as well? They're in nicer shape than mine.

Exceptionally Rare DWM Model 1923 American Eagle Commercial Artillery Luger Pistol with A. F. Stoeger New York Retailer Markings

Rare 1923 Stoeger Model DWM American Eagle Luger with Rare A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster

Outstanding and Rare DWM 1923 "American Eagle" Luger with Desirable A. F. Stoeger Markings and Leather Holster

 

[Absalom]

Good Lord

Too good to be true? What the hell does that mean? Yours is "authentic" because its got more wear? Give me a friggen break.

Its a commercial Luger. This one didn't see hard times. I have guns older than it in nicer shape, actually. They sat in a sock drawer for decades. It happens.

Are these all too good to be true as well? They're in nicer shape than mine.

With all due respect, but if you put up a comparatively rare gun like this for show and tell, you need to develop a thicker skin.

And no, debates like this are not what PM's are for, this is exactly what the forum is for. This isn't just for attaboys, this is a forum for discussion.

Now I have no expertise whatsoever in regards to these Lugers, which is why I'm reading this thread with great interest, both your presentation and the doubts raised by some others. Obviously, some critics can rather easily be disregarded, others seem to know what they are talking about.

So don't get all defensive. You're not trying to sell us the gun. I'm still waiting for someone from either side to snip some real close-ups of the bird to illustrate what they think they're seeing.

I find this discussion quite educational.

 

[bc1023]

With all due respect, I've been collecting many, many years and own well over a half million dollars worth of rare handguns. I also have a lot of current stuff as well. I don't need thicker skin. I do just fine the way I am and don't change much at this stage of my life.

A guy made a ridiculous comment and I commented back. Enough said. It's all part of the "discussion".

Good day.

 

[Darkenfast]

Bc1023, I've been a follower of your famous carpet pics both here and elsewhere for some time. If you say it's real, it's real. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[bc1023]

Bc1023, I've been a follower of your famous carpet pics both here and elsewhere for some time. If you say it's real, it's real. Thanks for sharing it.

Thanks, my friend. The gun matches every sign in the book, right down to the serial number and "GELADEN" extractor. All rollmarks are correct.

 

[locsmb]

Beautiful. I certainly admire the various pieces you have acquired as I've seen here and a few other forums where you post. Your collection is what has helped me along fuel my own little accumulation of firearms that interest me.

It certainly helped me as I started buying my 1911s. It is partly responsible for what I refer to as my "backward progression" in my appreciation for firearms. Your collection of benellis and the like has reinvigorated my love for some of the vintage auto pistols in terms of the way they were built to their aesthetics. So I started out with the modern "wonder-nines" in the late 90s, then "regressed" (imho in a good way) to 1911s.

Of late, I've been combing my local haunts for older styled autos and even am looking to add a few revolvers (both double and preferably single action) to my stash. The only thing is I don't have the capability to buy something purely for "collecting". What I buy, I should be able to shoot without worrying about reducing its value in terms of collectability.

I look forward to more pics of your wonderful collection.

Thanks for sharing.