indigo22
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I've noticed that over the last 6 months or so that the 40's are being traded off...? Has anyone heard of why these are being abandoned? Recoil management? Caliber envy wars? I'm curious as I was considering the 40 myself.
Rash of .40 cal trade-ins
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I have seen quite a few of those. If they had been 9mm I might have picked a few up.
Ozark Marine
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F.B.I. going back to 9mm.
Wait a few years for the F.B.I. to next change again to ?
Wait a few years for the F.B.I. to next change again to ?
Echo40
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Unfortunately, most folks out there who are only interested in firearms for self-defense tend to just follow the example of the Military or Law Enforcement, and now that the FBI has transitioned away from .40 S&W to 9mm Luger, folks are following suit.
It also doesn't help that there are a lot of extremely vocal 9mm Fanboys (including writers/editors for various publications) who like to pretend that it's the ultimate, one-size-fits-all self-defense cartridge and thus make all sorts of ridiculous statements like that modern 9mm Luger +P ammo is roughly equal to .40 S&W, ergo folks who are just looking for a good self-defense cartridge get fooled into thinking that they'd be better off selling their .40cal pistol for a 9mm pistol which is just as powerful, but lighter in weight with less recoil which is much cheaper to buy ammo for.
Eventually the FBI will decide that the 9mm isn't effective enough and that it's more important for agents to be able to put a threat down as quickly as possible than it is to cater towards the recoil sensitivity of certain agents, at which point they'll either switch back to .40, switch to another cartridge, or contract someone to design yet another new cartridge which better suits their needs, then everyone will want whatever they're carrying.
I honestly wish that one of these days that a bunch of different websites would collaborate on an elaborate prank/experiment in which several publications run a story in which the Military/FBI have adopted a revision of the Gyrojet as their new Standard Issue sidearm/cartridge, meanwhile fake listings for said cartridge/firearm would be all over major online firearms retailers like Bud's Gun Shop, just to see how many folks would place orders for them.
I have a hunch that there would be a whole lot of folks who would immediately flock to said retailers, regardless of how ridiculous/impractical the supposed choice of the Military/FBI may be.
It also doesn't help that there are a lot of extremely vocal 9mm Fanboys (including writers/editors for various publications) who like to pretend that it's the ultimate, one-size-fits-all self-defense cartridge and thus make all sorts of ridiculous statements like that modern 9mm Luger +P ammo is roughly equal to .40 S&W, ergo folks who are just looking for a good self-defense cartridge get fooled into thinking that they'd be better off selling their .40cal pistol for a 9mm pistol which is just as powerful, but lighter in weight with less recoil which is much cheaper to buy ammo for.
Eventually the FBI will decide that the 9mm isn't effective enough and that it's more important for agents to be able to put a threat down as quickly as possible than it is to cater towards the recoil sensitivity of certain agents, at which point they'll either switch back to .40, switch to another cartridge, or contract someone to design yet another new cartridge which better suits their needs, then everyone will want whatever they're carrying.
I honestly wish that one of these days that a bunch of different websites would collaborate on an elaborate prank/experiment in which several publications run a story in which the Military/FBI have adopted a revision of the Gyrojet as their new Standard Issue sidearm/cartridge, meanwhile fake listings for said cartridge/firearm would be all over major online firearms retailers like Bud's Gun Shop, just to see how many folks would place orders for them.
I have a hunch that there would be a whole lot of folks who would immediately flock to said retailers, regardless of how ridiculous/impractical the supposed choice of the Military/FBI may be.
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
40 makes a good pistol caliber carbine.
Sales of the .40's have gone off a cliff. That has been due to the adoption of the 9mm by the FBI and a number of other large agencies. The agencies claim they've gone to the 9mm because it's just as effective (?), it is much less expensive, it's easier to shoot well and gun life is significantly longer. Most of those reasons are certainly true but the main one, effectiveness, remains open to question. Regardless, sales of the .40 in the civilian market have really dried up. Used cop guns will be a dime a dozen - literally!
If I wouldn't feel comfortable in the east Texas woods with it I don't feel good about it in the city either. I have several 9mm pistols, but i'd never expect to drop a 250 pound hog in the woods with it unless I got lucky on shot placement. A .40 Smith & Wesson with a 180 flat point, I'd be happier.
There are so many police trade in .40's right now it is affecting the civilain owned, lower rounds count guns. I just saw a Glock 22 with not many rounds for sale at $330 shipped. I may have to grab that one.
There are so many police trade in .40's right now it is affecting the civilain owned, lower rounds count guns. I just saw a Glock 22 with not many rounds for sale at $330 shipped. I may have to grab that one.
Some won't agree , but that's ok. I bought a Springfield XD40 not long after they were available in that caliber I was torn between the 40 and the 9 in a subcompact, great gun flawless in operation. I just could not warm up to the caliber. I finally sold it and went to a Springfield 1911 45 acp and never looked back. i may get a Springfield XD45 because i like the platform, but I will never go back to the 40. if you like your 40 enjoy God bless, and no offence intended.
I'm not a big fan of 9x19, though I carry one as my church gun. I've always viewed 9mm the same as 38 Special and 308/3006. It's the largest caliber in a given platform that the average person can learn to shoot well. Now before you tell me how you shot Expert with an 88 Wonder Mag, and have almost stopped twitching, the average person is not a firearms person. Even in law enforcement and the military.
ContinentalOp
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Real world results show that all the service calibers work about the same, so there's no reason to pick one caliber over another if effectiveness is the concern. Pick the caliber you like best. .40S&W will do the job just as well as 9mm or .45ACP or .357Sig. If you find a good .40S&W trade-in that you like and it's a better deal than the same gun in a different caliber, there's nothing wrong with choosing it.
My EDC for the past three years has been an M&P 40c. I'm a fan of the .40, and I have no use for the 9mm round. I had two 9mm pistols, but I converted one, a SIG P320 compact, to a .357 SIG. The other, a Shield, is now a safe queen. My thinking on my preferred caliber for carry was heavily influenced by an article I read about the Fort Hood terrorist attack in 2009. The terrorist punk who carried it out was eventually stopped by a police officer who hit him with five 9mm rounds. Because they did not kill the punk (he was paralyzed), he is now wasting taxpayer dollars with appeals of his death sentence. I got to thinking that if the officer had shot him with five .40 caliber rounds, that probably would have ended it then and there.
To me, my 40c has an excellent balance of compactness, hitting power, and capacity (11 rounds). It is easier to carry than my P320, and is more accurate and reliable than my Shield. So I'll stick with my 40c until something better comes along. If I ever have to defend myself or my loved ones, I'd prefer not to take the chance of merely wounding the bad guy.
To me, my 40c has an excellent balance of compactness, hitting power, and capacity (11 rounds). It is easier to carry than my P320, and is more accurate and reliable than my Shield. So I'll stick with my 40c until something better comes along. If I ever have to defend myself or my loved ones, I'd prefer not to take the chance of merely wounding the bad guy.
ContinentalOp
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The only problem with that line of thinking is that there will always be cases where an attacker didn't stop right away. What about the case of the guy who attacked a police officer in IL and didn't stop until he'd been hit with over a dozen rounds of .45ACP? Does that mean .45ACP is ineffective?
Kframerbluvr
Member
With today's modern projectiles, there is not a scientifically significant difference in effectiveness among the common service handgun calibers.
Nothing works 100% all of the time.
My work issues Gen 3 and 4 Glock 23 .40 handguns. For the type of work my place does, a 9mm would be just as well.
For a rural agency with a higher percentage of "shooters" on the job and with the higher odds of encountering suspects in vehicles or mobile homes, I would suspect that the .40 would be preferable.
My nephew is an elected Sheriff in a rural county and is very pleased with the .40 round and the M&P pistols they issue. I enjoy reloading the .40 more than 9mm because the cases rarely have crimped primer pockets to deal with and it seems to have more consistent dimensions among the various ammo manufacturers.
Nothing works 100% all of the time.
My work issues Gen 3 and 4 Glock 23 .40 handguns. For the type of work my place does, a 9mm would be just as well.
For a rural agency with a higher percentage of "shooters" on the job and with the higher odds of encountering suspects in vehicles or mobile homes, I would suspect that the .40 would be preferable.
My nephew is an elected Sheriff in a rural county and is very pleased with the .40 round and the M&P pistols they issue. I enjoy reloading the .40 more than 9mm because the cases rarely have crimped primer pockets to deal with and it seems to have more consistent dimensions among the various ammo manufacturers.
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I haven't owned a .40, but mostly because I don't want to stock another caliber. Physics will tell you that a .40 is more effective than a 9mm. What's subjective is how much that difference is, or makes. They are not physically the same though.
Yes, today the trend is away from the 40s to 9s. Also, the single stack pistols are commanding a higher price.
Carry concealability seems to be the driving force in much of the advertising which helps create these trends. The price of practice ammo is also a big consideration for many.
So, you'll need to go against the herd if you want to pick up a fine pistol at a great price.
Last week, I picked up a 90% SW4046 for $289. Yesterday, I took it to the range for the first time and put all rounds in post-its at 7 yards and rang the steel pig at 75 yards. Recoil is much softer with the 4046 than my CCW - Walther PPS40.
Buy the pistol that meets your needs - not your neighbors!
Carry concealability seems to be the driving force in much of the advertising which helps create these trends. The price of practice ammo is also a big consideration for many.
So, you'll need to go against the herd if you want to pick up a fine pistol at a great price.
Last week, I picked up a 90% SW4046 for $289. Yesterday, I took it to the range for the first time and put all rounds in post-its at 7 yards and rang the steel pig at 75 yards. Recoil is much softer with the 4046 than my CCW - Walther PPS40.
Buy the pistol that meets your needs - not your neighbors!
Skeptic 9c
Member
Years ago the FBI declared the .357 Magnum 125 grain Hollow Point the ultimate "man-stopper." In response SIG invented the 357 SIG, note no decimal point, which ran about 200 fps slower than the revolver round. Now 125-124 grain 9mm hollow points are running about 200 fts slower than the 357 SIG. One of the local ballistics mavens (maven: A guy who always knows exactly how much to tip!) can tell you how many feet you would have to be from the muzzle to get a loss of 400 fps in the Magnum round. Conclusion, with modern projectiles, all three rounds should have similar effects.
Geoff
Who carries low recoil .38 Special or 9mm in his sidearms, because the wife can handle them in an emergency, assuming she's already expended her revolver ammo.
Geoff
Who carries low recoil .38 Special or 9mm in his sidearms, because the wife can handle them in an emergency, assuming she's already expended her revolver ammo.
A fair contest.......
How many .40mms are built on 9mm frames with a .40 cal barrel? If the guns aren't holding up, it's because the .40 batters the frame just from normal use. Did 10mms have more maintenance problems that any other semi where the frame was a built for the round fired?
The .40 cal is a bit like a S&W model 19 revolver. Yeah, it will shoot .357 magnums, but it will have a limited life rather than the 'indefinite' life of a K frame .38 special.
Whenever the weaknesses of a particular pistol are discovered after use in the field, it's easier to change calibers rather than address those problems.
And wouldn't it be great if police departments had at least a couple of pistols in their issue for those that can't handle a bigger gun well instead of the 'one size fits all' mentality.
How many .40mms are built on 9mm frames with a .40 cal barrel? If the guns aren't holding up, it's because the .40 batters the frame just from normal use. Did 10mms have more maintenance problems that any other semi where the frame was a built for the round fired?
The .40 cal is a bit like a S&W model 19 revolver. Yeah, it will shoot .357 magnums, but it will have a limited life rather than the 'indefinite' life of a K frame .38 special.
Whenever the weaknesses of a particular pistol are discovered after use in the field, it's easier to change calibers rather than address those problems.
And wouldn't it be great if police departments had at least a couple of pistols in their issue for those that can't handle a bigger gun well instead of the 'one size fits all' mentality.
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Wee Hooker
Member
Because the shooting world has finally realized that the 40 S&W was the answer to a question that never needed to be asked. We can't give them away at the shop anymore.
mrmike7189
Member
I like 40 and own 2 of them. I also like 9mm and own 2 of them. The NYPD,LAPD, US Military and countries the world over have trusted the 9MM. 40S&W has mostly been an american law enforcement cartridge and if performs well, but nobody should be bashing the 9mm imo.
RGVshooter
Member
I've owned several 40 cal pistols and even used them on occasion in IDPA & USPSA matches. I consider myself to be a proficient shooter with over 30 yrs experience shooting handguns. Although I still believe 40 cal is the better all around duty caliber as far as barrier penetration, I can shoot 9mm faster & more accurately than 40. It showed with my hit ratio/times in USPSA. If the difference is consistently noticeable during a match, imagine what the difference would be under extreme stress of a life or death moment? It can cost you dearly.
I used to poke fun at people that would carry a .32 acp or even a .25. But if they can hit the bullseye consistently & faster at 7 yards than me with a 40 or 9mm, then god bless them.
I used to poke fun at people that would carry a .32 acp or even a .25. But if they can hit the bullseye consistently & faster at 7 yards than me with a 40 or 9mm, then god bless them.
Monkey see, monkey do.
I never did like following trends just for the sake of being fashionable, hence I never jumped onto the 40 S&W band wagon, so there is no need for me to jump off now. I will buy a 40 S&W pistol now if I see one float buy at what I think is a good price.
I never did like following trends just for the sake of being fashionable, hence I never jumped onto the 40 S&W band wagon, so there is no need for me to jump off now. I will buy a 40 S&W pistol now if I see one float buy at what I think is a good price.
Police departments buy new guns about every ten years or so. As an example my former department recently traded in their Sig P226s in .40 for new P229s in...40! They are happy with the caliber, FBI report not withstanding. i'm suggesting there are many cases where trade ins are replaced with the same caliber. Has anyone seen industry production figures for ammo sales?
Echo40
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I'm sorry, but I've said it before and I'll say it again right here... The existence of freak occurrences in which all major handgun cartridges have failed to immediately stop an attacker does not mean that all handgun cartridges are equal, it merely goes to illustrate the importance of shot-placement in a self-defense scenario.
Anyone who understands basic physics will tell you that a bigger, heavier projectile has greater momentum and therefore greater force, ergo a bigger, heavier bullet will hit harder, penetrate deeper, smash through bones more easily, and leave behind a larger wound cavity, especially so with Jacketed Hallow Point bullets. All of those factors combined mean that a person who is shot by a bigger, heavier bullet is going to take more damage and likely experience a greater amount of pain, thus increasing the odds of either incapacitation or a psychological stop from non-vital hits to the target.
You'll read a lot of articles online of freak occurrences in which an attacker took several bullets and kept on coming, but few of these articles detail just how long the attacker remained mobile afterwards, and there lies the clincher. Yes, shot-placement is key, and no one should ever rely heavily on uncertainties like eventual incapacitation due to blood loss or a psychological stop, but that doesn't prevent such things from being factors, and personally I would prefer a bigger, heavier bullet like .40 S&W or .45 ACP which in the unfortunate event that I fail to score a vital hit, will likely improve the odds of stopping the attacker sooner via incapacitation or convincing them to retreat.
In closing, if you feel most comfortable/confident carrying a 9mm, then more power to you, nobody is saying that the 9mm is ineffective, in fact I myself regularly carry .380 ACP, but don't go believing or spreading this nonsensical assertion that 9mm is equal to heavier cartridges because it simply isn't true.
Statistics can be very misleading and are often backed by information which hasn't been compiled in equal measure. For example, did you know that based on statistics, .22LR has stopped more attackers than any other cartridge? It's true, look it up. But how can the .22LR possibly have a statistically higher volume of stopping attacks than any other cartridge? Simple, because more people own a .22 caliber firearm than any other cartridge, the .22LR has very little recoil which makes it very easy to stay on target, pull off quick follow-up shots, and these statistics don't take into account how many times each cartridge has failed to stop an attacker, ergo the results are hopelessly skewed and beget misleading results due to an uneven sample size. By the way, this is also true of most statistics, hence why many folks take statistics with a grain of salt.
Anyone who understands basic physics will tell you that a bigger, heavier projectile has greater momentum and therefore greater force, ergo a bigger, heavier bullet will hit harder, penetrate deeper, smash through bones more easily, and leave behind a larger wound cavity, especially so with Jacketed Hallow Point bullets. All of those factors combined mean that a person who is shot by a bigger, heavier bullet is going to take more damage and likely experience a greater amount of pain, thus increasing the odds of either incapacitation or a psychological stop from non-vital hits to the target.
You'll read a lot of articles online of freak occurrences in which an attacker took several bullets and kept on coming, but few of these articles detail just how long the attacker remained mobile afterwards, and there lies the clincher. Yes, shot-placement is key, and no one should ever rely heavily on uncertainties like eventual incapacitation due to blood loss or a psychological stop, but that doesn't prevent such things from being factors, and personally I would prefer a bigger, heavier bullet like .40 S&W or .45 ACP which in the unfortunate event that I fail to score a vital hit, will likely improve the odds of stopping the attacker sooner via incapacitation or convincing them to retreat.
In closing, if you feel most comfortable/confident carrying a 9mm, then more power to you, nobody is saying that the 9mm is ineffective, in fact I myself regularly carry .380 ACP, but don't go believing or spreading this nonsensical assertion that 9mm is equal to heavier cartridges because it simply isn't true.
Statistics can be very misleading and are often backed by information which hasn't been compiled in equal measure. For example, did you know that based on statistics, .22LR has stopped more attackers than any other cartridge? It's true, look it up. But how can the .22LR possibly have a statistically higher volume of stopping attacks than any other cartridge? Simple, because more people own a .22 caliber firearm than any other cartridge, the .22LR has very little recoil which makes it very easy to stay on target, pull off quick follow-up shots, and these statistics don't take into account how many times each cartridge has failed to stop an attacker, ergo the results are hopelessly skewed and beget misleading results due to an uneven sample size. By the way, this is also true of most statistics, hence why many folks take statistics with a grain of salt.
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TomkinsSP
Member
Departments follow trends. Ok. Lots of nicely priced 40s out there. For a civilian, at least one with a Glock, it would seem more cost effective to buy a 9mm barrel for your 40 than to sell a 40 and buy a 9. Then you have both.
Then buy the .22 conversion kit as well. They are lots of fun.
Then buy the .22 conversion kit as well. They are lots of fun.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
I eschew the .40 for one reason and one reason only. COST. As far as the 9 being less powerful-simple solution. Shoot twice.
I've owned firearms for close to 50 years and with the exception of shooting my little brother with the BB gun way back when , I have not yet had the opportunity to shoot anyone else so I can't comment of whether or not my 9 will do the job. If I ever do shoot someone, I'll be sure to post the results.
Maybe Sig220.45 will chime in. As retired FBI I'm sure he's shot lots of people over his career.
I've owned firearms for close to 50 years and with the exception of shooting my little brother with the BB gun way back when , I have not yet had the opportunity to shoot anyone else so I can't comment of whether or not my 9 will do the job. If I ever do shoot someone, I'll be sure to post the results.
Maybe Sig220.45 will chime in. As retired FBI I'm sure he's shot lots of people over his career.
Oh jeeez! You let the cat out of the bag! I did it too... maybe we need to start a "little brother" thread
I can only add that I have overheard several conversations between the many LEOs who belong to my outdoor range club. What I have gathered is that the demise of the 40 and return to the 9 is a result of the Speer LE 124gr 9mm+P Gold Dot and similar offerings
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