Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet

[Rastoff]

the truth is, no one is willing to do the best training for self defense.
if they were, they would all learn point shooting.

With all due respect to your skill with point shooting, I'm not sure I agree this is necessary. There is no reason not to use sights when the distance exceeds 5 yards. Closer in, the flash sight picture or even point shooting, to include shooting from the hip, may be necessary.

Some will say that point shooting is necessary because a person can close the distance from 10 yards very quickly. That's true, but by the time you bring the gun to bear, they aren't 10 yards anymore, are they? If they are at 10 yards, you have more time to use your sights and be sure.

I'm not saying point shooting has no value. Just that the range where it is most valuable is not greater than 5 yards. Further, even with thousands of rounds of practice, most people won't be as precise as you are when point shooting. That's just the way it is.


While all this is interesting to me and many others, shakyshoot is correct, this thread is about precision shooting. If you want to participate, please join us and post your results.

 

[carpriver]

I just found this thread, I was at the range testing some new powder for my reloading of 9 MM and 45 ACP. I was shooting from roughly 25-30 ft. using a standard police target. My shooting was fair compared to some who shot and showed their target I was shooting to check for flash, recoil and load. both loads showed they are worth using. Accuracy will was good but I wasn't really trying to for it. I was shooting 1911's a full size in 45ACP. 9MM. and A commander size in 9mm and a compact in 45ACP. So I am going give your test a try.

One of my training modes is standing, draw, fire 3 rounds into the center of standard police target at 25 ft.

 

[Rastoff]

Very nice shooting Klyde. I look forward to seeing your post with the challenge target. I'm pretty sure you can do it.

 

[shakyshoot]

I passed the challenge with my 45 Shield this morning. I used all of the right side of the 2 x 3" on one of the 7 yarders, but snuck it in as part of a 1 3/4" group. This despite the fact that the guy next to me seemed to spend as much time picking up brass from MY LANE as he did shooting. He was shooting a 38 super, and treated the brass like gold nuggets. Really liking the 45 Shield so far. Only 165 rounds through, but no malfunctions yet.

 

[Okie21]

Okie21,
Don't be intimidated, be encouraged. Your target is pretty good. Especially with an SD9VE. Those have a huge amount of creep and that can affect the shot quite a bit.

You're grouping slightly low and to the left. This is very common among right hand shooters. One thing to try to counter this issue is to put your trigger finger a little further into the trigger. If you're using the middle of the pad of the first finger, try moving it a little more toward the knuckle.

Also, try concentrating on pressing the trigger straight back. This will help minimize movement of the gun as you press the trigger.

Took your advice about my trigger finger. I'm more centered, but still same group size, about 4.5" if you take out that one low shot

 

[otasan56]

I teach CCW (carry concealed weapon) classes. It is my goal in these classes to help people learn the law and to shoot better in defensive situations. The law in CA doesn't require a shooting component to get a CCW license. However, my local sheriff likes to see it included in the class. To qualify for the shooting portion, a student must shoot 20 shots. They must all be within the silhouette of a B-27E target like this one:

This target is enormous at 2' wide by 3' tall.

The course of fire is:

• 4 shots from 3 yards
• 6 shots from 5 yards
• 6 shots from 7 yards
• 4 shots from 10 yards

All shots are fired with the shooters choice of grip and stance and start from the ready position (gun loaded, but not in holster). They are all untimed so, there is no need to hurry.

The goal here is to see that the students can handle their guns safely and at least get their bullets to go in the general direction of the target. I thought this would be a very easy test. After instructing many students, I can see that this is more difficult than I thought.

Because I thought it was easy, I had never actually shot the full course. I'm a huge believer that an instructor doesn't need to be the best, but should at least be able to do what he's asking the students to do. So, today I shot the test. Here is my result:

Notice that all the shots are in the orange. There is actually a tiny bit of orange between the right line and the right most hole. So, none of my shots are even touching the line. (It was sunny, but the wind was blowing about 5-10MPH from my back.)

So, I challenge everyone here to run the same course of fire. There is a lot of talk about, "I shoot well enough to defend myself." OK, I'm calling you out. Run this course of fire and post your pics here. Can you keep all 20 shots in the orange? I don't think you can! That's right, I said it, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT!!!

Here are the rules:

• Any target may be used. To say you did as well as I did, all your shots must be within a 2"x3" oval. That's the size of the B-27E bullseye. So, either use a B-27E (regular B-27 would be fine) or provide proof of the size of your group.
• The gun must be a gun used for self/home-defense.
• The gun must be used in the same fashion it would be used for defense. So, if it is a DA/SA, the first shot at each yardage must be shot DA first and then SA for the rest. If it's a revolver it must be shot DA for every shot.
• The course of fire is as above.
• All shots are untimed.

This is done on your honor. If you say you did it, I'll believe you, but you must post a picture of your target. Let's keep this in the spirit of the forum. While I'm sure you can use this gun to defend yourself...

...it doesn't fit the spirit of the competition.

I used this one:

Well there it is.

I know you can't beat me, but can you even come close? PROVE IT!!! (There might be a prize involved. )

Nice shooting, sir.

 

[Bob O]

I had my buddy Mike shoot this challenge two weeks ago. I watched as he dropped one shot at 7 yds. :-(

I cut the center out of the official target and laid it over the target we used. All were nicely in the orange except for one! He'll try it again next time out.

I'll also give it a go with my two new pistols.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[Rastoff]

Took your advice about my trigger finger. I'm more centered, but still same group size, about 4.5" if you take out that one low shot

Yes, that is nicely centered. I highly recommend dry practice at home. concentrate on pressing the trigger straight back.

The S&W SD series of pistols are especially hard to shoot tight groups with. They are fully capable, but the trigger has lots of creep.

One exercise to try is to work on simply holding the gun still. Hold the gun at the ready position. Now, without looking a the sights, press the trigger. Did the gun move? If it did, keep working on it until it doesn't.

Once you can keep the gun absolutely still while pressing the trigger, then add the sights.

Ultimately, shooting is about keeping the gun from moving while pressing the trigger. When you go back to live fire, your groups should be smaller. Don't worry about the accuracy just yet. All you're concerned about at this point is consistency. Once you're consistent, indicated by a tighter group, then we can work on accuracy, i.e. hitting the X.

 

[Protected One]

I hear this all the time. Guys on the internet say, "I normally shoot 2" groups at 25 yards" or "I can shoot 3" groups at 50 yards with my super special wonder gun" yet I never see it.

I spend a lot of time at the range. I see a lot of targets. It's a rare day that I see a group smaller than 10" at 7 yards, let alone 50.

WOW! Really?

 

[Protected One]

Okay, here's a legit 25 yd offhand 1 1/2" group I shot with my Ruger 22/45. When will the money start rolling in? lol

Lets see a strong hand target. It should be at least "somewhat better".

 

[Rastoff]

WOW! Really?

Yes, really. Remember, the 9 ring on a standard B-27 is only 8" wide. The 8 ring is 12" and I usually see shots in the 8 and 7 rings. Many are even in the white.

Tell me you don't see targets like this regularly:

Almost universally, the same people who shoot the 10" groups at 7 yards cut those groups in half with 10 minutes of real instruction. A couple of days of instruction and practice and they're shooting controlled pairs, under 2.4 seconds, in groups smaller than a fist.

The problem is most guys think they are great shots and were just having an off day. They generally shun any kind of instruction.

Lets see a strong hand target. It should be at least "somewhat better".

The term "off hand" is target shooting speak for standing, unsupported. So, he was using his "strong" hand.

 

[Bob O]

Half of the police officers I worked with over 25 years had targets like that.

Thanks to you Rastoff, I will no longer use the term "double tap" when describing any manner of my own shooting. Controlled pair is a better description when accuracy counts. Anyone can perform a double tap simply by pulling the trigger twice really fast. A controlled pair is something entirely different.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[shakyshoot]

Make it with my PPQ-45. I've tried about 6 times and always seem to get 19 of 20. Got all 20 in today, and all by a good margin except that one on the left, which makes it by about 1/16". That was the 3rd 10 yd shot. I had to bring the target in and look at it before taking the 20th shot. About a 1 3/4" group. I've made it with 6 different guns now, not counting my target .22's. The PPQ-45 has taken it's place as my nightstand gun now that it has 700 rds with no malfunctions.

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

Way to go Deadeye, I mean Shakyshot!

Have a blessed day,

Leon

 

[shakyshoot]

Made it with my latest acquisition: The Ruger Security Six I bought on impulse at my range. This gun has such a great single action trigger I almost don't want to shoot it double action. But this was all DA and shot cold as per the "rules." Mild 38 Specials for this target, but the gun is very comfortable with full power .357's.

 

[shinbone]

10 shots. 10 yds. The orange dot is 3" in diameter.

 

[Rastoff]

10 shots. 10 yds. The orange dot is 3" in diameter.

Very good shooting. Now try it in the order defined in the OP.

 

[Bob L]

Rastoff's Challenge

Well, I finally made it out to the range today to take the challenge. I decided to take the challenge with a model 19 snub-nose that I picked up. To make it interesting, I did the challenge cold including the first time having shot the 19 so it made it a little interesting. Did the challenge all double action because I need the practice. Adjusted the sights after the first 6 rounds (started at 7 yds) but had a great time. Nothing to brag about but I love the little 19 which is fast becoming my favorite. A great end to the year. ended up being 2.625x 2.625". Need to get a set of shooting glasses made up as the bifocals don't work the best. Happy New Year to All!

 

[Angus46]

Here you go, between the ice we have going on I got out to the range today. Was a ton of fun to push for accuracy. Long time precision rifle shooter, but never did this much with pistols.

My red dot was a tad off, I was shooting left, but did pretty well. About a 2" group minus my 4th shot at 10. Got excited and didn't focus on trigger press and pulled it off. I shot a 5th but know that doesn't count.

Just because I like to win, I tried it with my 686. It's old and love that gun. I think I got you with that gun. The way I measure it, right at 1.605"!!!!

Now I will agree not really in the spirit of your challenge. However, it's a no dash gun, so technically it was a carry gun when it was made

Thanks for the challenge it was fun and think I'll add in a tad more accuracy work during my range times. I will get my red dot a little better zero and I may be able to get all 20 in the X ring

 

[shakyshoot]

Nice shooting Angus. I don't see any problem with shooting the 686 for the challenge, since it's certainly a viable home defense gun. The OP says a carry gun or home defense gun.