Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet

[Protected One]

I gotta say I would aim a little further to the left. If I were aiming at the left eye socket and pull that shot low...

I doubt you'd pull it, considering the 10 yd shots you made. This would most likely be within 10'.
Even if you pulled it there's ~2" of hair poofed up there, so you would have to REALLY pull it to hit her.

 

[shakyshoot]

I'm continuing my quest to "break the inch" on group size. Very close to it today. I measure my group at 1 1/16" without that one in the corner. That was the 3rd 10 yd shot, and spread the group to 1 5/16". Yes, I've committed heresy by putting a Fastfire III on my Range Officer.

 

[Rastoff]

Shakyshoot,
You have demonstrated your prowess with this challenge several times. Without a doubt you're in the top two if not the top.

Now, you need to advance to the next level; time. You've shown that you can shoot well when you have all the time necessary. Now, add time pressure.

Try this:
Starting from the ready, shoot 5 controlled pairs at 5 yards and 5 controlled pairs at 7 yards.
At 5 yards set your PAR time to 2 seconds.
At 7 yards set your PAR time to 2.3 seconds.
To succeed, each pair must be within the 10 ring on my original target.

Well? Do you accept?

I just made this up on the spot as I sit here marveling at your target. I will shoot this on Saturday and post my result.

 

[Protected One]

I'm continuing my quest to "break the inch" on group size. Very close to it today. I measure my group at 1 1/16" without that one in the corner. That was the 3rd 10 yd shot, and spread the group to 1 5/16". Yes, I've committed heresy by putting a Fastfire III on my Range Officer.

I'M CALLING "FOUL"!!!
Nice shoot'n

 

[Protected One]

Shakyshoot,
You have demonstrated your prowess with this challenge several times. Without a doubt you're in the top two if not the top.

Now, you need to advance to the next level; time. You've shown that you can shoot well when you have all the time necessary. Now, add time pressure.

Try this:
Starting from the ready, shoot 5 controlled pairs at 5 yards and 5 controlled pairs at 7 yards.
At 5 yards set your PAR time to 2 seconds.
At 7 yards set your PAR time to 2.3 seconds.
To succeed, each pair must be within the 10 ring on my original target.

Well? Do you accept?

I just made this up on the spot as I sit here marveling at your target. I will shoot this on Saturday and post my result.

10 rounds inside the 10 ring in 2 seconds??? I can't wait to see THAT target!

 

[shakyshoot]

Now, you need to advance to the next level; time. You've shown that you can shoot well when you have all the time necessary. Now, add time pressure.

Try this:
Starting from the ready, shoot 5 controlled pairs at 5 yards and 5 controlled pairs at 7 yards.
At 5 yards set your PAR time to 2 seconds.
At 7 yards set your PAR time to 2.3 seconds.
To succeed, each pair must be within the 10 ring on my original target.

Well? Do you accept?

Sure, I'll try it. I believe I can do it, because I have done some quick shooting at that target at 7 yards. When you say ready, that's low ready? And 2 seconds to shoot the pair right? (not 2 seconds between shots) Do I have to do this cold, or can I do the original challenge cold then this one? I don't want to give up my "break the inch" quest.

 

[SixShooter14]

Smh...I think I need to switch to a slingshot. Shaky, you sure make my shootin' look pretty dismal. Nice going, and good luck.

 

[Rastoff]

10 rounds inside the 10 ring in 2 seconds??? I can't wait to see THAT target!

Hahaha, yeah, me too! No, 2 seconds for each pair.

Sure, I'll try it. I believe I can do it, because I have done some quick shooting at that target at 7 yards. When you say ready, that's low ready? And 2 seconds to shoot the pair right? (not 2 seconds between shots) Do I have to do this cold, or can I do the original challenge cold then this one? I don't want to give up my "break the inch" quest.

Based on the original concept, it should be shot cold. However, to preserve your quest, shoot the original first. I'd like to see you break 1" too.

Just to be clear, this is the goal:
All pairs start from the low ready. This is with both hands on the gun and your arms at approximately 45deg to the ground.

From 5 yards fire 5 controlled pairs: 2 second PAR for each pair.
From 7 yards fire 5 controlled pairs: 2.3 seconds PAR for each pair.

To succeed all shots must land within the 10 ring of a standard B27 target.



For those that aren't familiar with a test like this, it's harder than it seems. From the ready, 2 seconds for a controlled pair is a long time. However, adding the accuracy component really steps this up a notch. Normally I only require a fist sized distance for the pair for myself. That's larger than the 10 ring with my fist.

When I do a similar drill, I start from concealment. I use 1.9 seconds from 5 and 2.1 from 7. I don't always succeed on time, but I'm usually on target. This should be quite the challenge.

 

[Rastoff]

OK, here is my first target from the new challenge:

As you can see, it is not a passing target. I dropped the first shot of the last pair at 7 yards. I'll get it next time.

For the record, this was shot cold; first 20 shots of the day.

Here is my partner in crime demonstrating the set up:

He was demonstrating what it looked like while pointed in. He did start from the low ready; about 45° to the ground. I won't post his target. Suffice it to say, he has an issue with pushing shots to the left. Still good shooting, but he was in the 9 ring with about 25% of his shots.

 

[Just another 22 shooter]

Well I decided to give the new M&P 45c a try. Don't even have 100 rounds thru it yet, but thought I'd see how I'd do.
The 2 shots low are the 1st and 4th rounds from 10 yds. Have no idea why they went there, but pretty sure it was my fault. I'll give it try again after I have a few hundred round thru the gun, I do know I LIKE the 45 in the M&P and hope to have a full size some time in the distant future.

 

[Okie21]

Here's my contribution. SD9VE, which is my carry gun and my 1st and only handgun. Had it for about 7 months. Shooting at an 8" round target with Federal 115gr aluminum case fmj. Some of your pics are pretty intimidating to a newb like me, but here it is.

 

[Rastoff]

Okie21,
Don't be intimidated, be encouraged. Your target is pretty good. Especially with an SD9VE. Those have a huge amount of creep and that can affect the shot quite a bit.

You're grouping slightly low and to the left. This is very common among right hand shooters. One thing to try to counter this issue is to put your trigger finger a little further into the trigger. If you're using the middle of the pad of the first finger, try moving it a little more toward the knuckle.

Also, try concentrating on pressing the trigger straight back. This will help minimize movement of the gun as you press the trigger.

 

[shakyshoot]

Okay, I believe I've succeeded in my "break the inch" quest. I make this right at 1 7/16" at the two widest edges of the grease rings that equals 1.4375. subtracting .451= .9865" No calipers or anything, just a good steel rule. I tried finding that post about the group measuring program, which I never did get around to trying. Couldn't find it.

Still failing miserably at the "speed" version of the challenge, but i'll keep trying.

 

[Mister X]

I've heard a lot of people say that this is a waste of time, that speed shooting is what's necessary for self-defense shooting. I beg to differ. There is a balance between accuracy and speed. Be fast and accurate. How fast and how accurate is dependent on the situation. Take this for example:

If that were my wife or daughter, actually I don't care what her relationship is to me, I want to be very accurate with this shot.

Edit: I updated the pic with an outline of where you'd have to shoot to guarantee he'll no longer be a threat.

Shouldn't the majority of training time be allocated for preparing for the most likely scenarios? Do you honestly think pistol sniping a knife wielding bad guy holding a hostage is a probable defense scenario for a civilian? I imagine it has actually happened before, but the odds are so astronomically low to justify devoting any substantial amount of training time to such skills.

 

[shakyshoot]

Shouldn't the majority of training time be allocated for preparing for the most likely scenarios? Do you honestly think pistol sniping a knife wielding bad guy holding a hostage is a probable defense scenario for a civilian? I imagine it has actually happened before, but the odds are so astronomically low to justify devoting any substantial amount of training time to such skills.

The odds of being in ANY self defense shooting situation are pretty low, so why bother to train at all? If you think you just might be in a self defense shooting situation. why pretend you can guess what the particulars will be? If you can't shoot a gun accurately, all the speed in the world won't help you. If you feel this type of shooting is a waste of time, don't do it.

 

[Rastoff]

Shouldn't the majority of training time be allocated for preparing for the most likely scenarios?

I do have that old time notion that all training is valuable if you apply yourself.

In the end, shakyshoot said it best...

If you feel this type of shooting is a waste of time, don't do it.

 

[Mister X]

The odds of being in ANY self defense shooting situation are pretty low, so why bother to train at all? If you think you just might be in a self defense shooting situation. why pretend you can guess what the particulars will be? If you can't shoot a gun accurately, all the speed in the world won't help you. If you feel this type of shooting is a waste of time, don't do it.

I can look at stats, documented incidents and use common sense to get a pretty solid idea of what the most likely scenarios a civilian would encounter.

Responsible instructors should guide those interested in realistic self-defense in the right direction on how to train properly for the most probable encountered situations. If additional training for unusually rare instances is desired, that's fine, but just as long as it's understood that things like having to engage terrorists or be forced to take a head shot in a hostage situation is just really not very plausible. And being able to accurately shoot a handgun in a static range sense is simply not all that applicable to civilian self-defense. People want to think it is, but it simply isn't. Stand and deliver is usually limited to extremely unlikely proactive or intervention type scenarios. In purely self-based reactive situations(and setting aside necessary integrated skills) understanding how and being able to bring the weapon into play effectively while using movement against close-quarter attacks and putting rounds on target quickly is what's needed to be effective. Train how you see fit, I just don't like seeing people misguided.

If this thread was simply about shooting for sport, target or just for fun, that's one thing, but the OP states it's about being a better defensive shooter. As such, it then becomes perfectly acceptable to question the practical relevance of the activity. Meaningless increments of precision — and why you should avoid them - [url]www.GrantCunningham.com www.GrantCunningham.com[/url]

Do you want to be a better shooter or a better defender? - www.GrantCunningham.com www.GrantCunningham.com

..

 

[susieqz]

the truth is, no one is willing to do the best training for self defense.
if they were, they would all learn point shooting.
getting an accurate shot off at ranges to 10 yards takes a small fraction of a second.
but, this takes lots of work n lots of time n money, so people can't be bothered.

 

[686-380]

I only had to qualify once every 3 years in the USAF. Of course, that was with an M16.

I have only been a pistol owner for about 8 years, since I retired. I'm still a novice. I'm fortunate that I have some very patient range officers. I finally have started to improve my grip for two-handed shooting. Maybe, one I get that down, I'll learn some tricks shooting one-handed and left handed.

Regardless, I'm grateful for this forum and this particular thread to provide incentive.

 

[shakyshoot]

the truth is, no one is willing to do the best training for self defense.

So.... between guessing at what a shooting situation will be like based on statistics, and the vastly superior method of point shooting, I may as well just get a 3 round pistol with no sights.

I won't say that this type of discussion has no merit, just that this particular thread is not the place for it. For better or worse, THIS thread is about one particular skill--slow fire shooting from a standing position. Post up a target or move on.