RCMP 38 Special "Military & Police"

[CanadianSon]

In the late 60's- early 70's the RCMP started swapping out their "long action" revolvers for "short action" versions. Members were allowed to purchase the turned-in revolver right there and then from the storeman by writing a cheque to Crown Assets Disposal ($21.60 in 1971 in this case) and have it federally registered as a restricted private handgun.

This particular model belongs to my father so I would like to know its manufacturing history. Thank you for the detailed sticky instructions on the first page. I will not bother you with the 4 digit number from inside the yoke:

38 S&W Special Cartridge.
5" tapered barrel with the sloped milled front site.
5 screws ( 4 on case and one in front of trigger guard).
An additional strain screw in the hand grip.
No model number or letter for the serial number.
From the butt plate: 6246 plus a stylized stamped "MP".
Lanyard swivel.
From the cylinder face: 629946 (as above but with 99 in the middle). Coincidence?
From the rear of the handgrip: "A.P.P." (possibly Alberta Provincial Police 1917-1932).
From inside the handrip: Another stylized "MP" stamp.
Polished blue/black finish.

The disposal and registration paperwork called it a "Military & Police Model 10 Long Action". I suspect it only had "model 10" added because they closely resembled the newer short action replacements.

The "stylized MP" stamp (the trailing leg of the M serverd as the P) was either from S&W for "Military & Police" or from the RCMP for "Mounted Police". Does this "MP" stamp appear on other standard versions of the "Military&Police" revolver?

The"A.P.P." probably stood for "Alberta Provincial Police" which existed from 1917 to 1932. Then the RCMP took over. That means this revolver was in service before 1933. The stylized MP was probably added by the Mounted Police when they took over the inventory.

Thank you.

 

[Skeetr57]

There are some anomalies on the pictured gun. The front sight and ejector rod are from a later time frame than the serial number would indicate, as are the grips. The finish appears to be much better than expected from a police gun of that vintage. It sounds as if the butt swivel was added after the gun left the factory and the hole was drilled through the serial number. If this was done at S&W, there will be a serial number stamped on the left side of the grip frame. If the other changes were done at the factory, there should be a date stamp on the left side of the grip frame also.

 

[CanadianSon]

Thanks for the reply. I am told he original grips were replaced out of stores in 1971 when it was turned in with S&W spares. It has been in storage (the ol'RCMP trunk in the basement) since then so they would be in perfect condition. You may be correct about the lanyard mount drilled through the serial number. The "99" may be obliterated on the butt. That would explain the 629946 on the cylinder face. Here is a picture.

 

[Absalom]

I agree with Tom that front sight and ejector knob are too modern for the serial number's date. This style appeared in the 1950s. The serial however just about fits into the Alberta police timeframe as it would place manufacture of the original gun into the very early 1930s.
To my knowledge S&W never put M&P on the gun, so that would be another agency label.

 

[CanadianSon]

Front sight - it appears to be the "half moon" style but milled down to provide a tapered slope. Possibly done afterwards by the Mounties.

Ejector knob - I am a little confused. Are you referring to the thumb press for opening the cyclinder; to the protrusion under the barrel in front of the ejector rod; or to the ejector rod itself?

 

[Absalom]

We are referring to the "thingie" at the front end of the ejector rod, where it engages the barrel when you close the cylinder. There is a knob screwed onto that end of the ejector rod; the style of that knob changed over time and can therefore be placed in a time frame.

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. You most likely have a 38 Military & Police, Fourth Change, shipped in 1931. What is wrong is easily modified from an example original to that date. The front sight would have been round when new, but a common modification was to file the rear of the sight. Maybe to make it look more like a 1950s gun, but maybe someone could see that style sight better than the round one. The stocks are much later, maybe 1970s.

As Tom stated, it seems obvious that the gun was sold without a lanyard, so the "99" is right where a lanyard was installed.

 

[824tsv]

Welcome to the Forum from another Northern member.
It appears to me that the revolver has been re-barrelled. The MP stamps were done at Depot and the lanyard swivel was also added when acquired in stores. What Province did your family member retire from?

 

[CanadianSon]

The revolver was removed from service in New Brunswick in 1971. Hence the 70's wooden grips. Retirement was in Nova Scotia many years later.

I see the knurled knob at the front of the ejector rod is different from other models. I understand now. On my example the knob is the same diameter as the rod itself. Whereas on earlier models the rod was smaller diameter than the knob.

Some models also did not appear to have a tab under the barrel for the ejector knob to snap into. When did that appear? Is it possible there was major factory rework to update the model? Would that have been cost effective?

 

[824tsv]

MP armorers would have done the barrel swap which would have been easy for them to do. I have a 6" M&P Target model with a fairly close serial# that shipped in May 1931. My Father retired from Ontario in 1972.

 

[Skeetr57]

The K frame .38 first appeared in 1899, and did not have a lug under the barrel to engage the ejector rod. The barrel lug showed up with the Model of 1902. Both of these early models had round butts. The square butt came with the model of 1905, and both round and square butt guns were cataloged as the Military and Police model. From 1902 until @ 1928, the head of the ejector rod was much larger than the ejector rod itself, and is called the "mushroom" head. After 1928, the diameter of the ejector rod head was reduced, and was straight cylindrical, but was still of a larger diameter than the ejector rod itself. About 2 years after S&W resumed civilian production post WWII. the ejector rod and head became the same diameter. The bottom of the barrel above the ejector was machined to accommodate the appropriate ejector rod head. Your gun appears to have both the post 1948 front sight and matching ejector rod. To me, this would indicate a barrel and cylinder change after the new front sight was adopted.
I have a S&W .32 Regulation Police from the 1920's that went back to S&W in 1967 and it has a post war barrel and ejector that indicates that the factory was out of the original type parts by that time.

 

[murphydog]

My guess is you will not find the 629946 stamped on the barrel flat near the ejector rod, and this likely indicates both these parts were swapped for later versions. Close up photos of both sides of the barrel (to show the style of rollmarks) would help to confirm this.

 

[Texas Star]

I have a book on RCMP guns that says the M&P .38 was adopted in 1954 to replace the Colt New Service .45.

I suspect that guns ordered then were of current make, with some older ones absorbed from other forces still in use. They probably called in and sold those when they adopted Plus P ammo, as a guess, or when parts for older ones became scarce. Some parts may have been exchanged for more modern ones over the years.

I agree that this example was re-barreled.

RCMP guns and leather, etc. are highly collectible. Take care of that one. Don't shoot it with Plus P ammo, just in case, although it was probably made after heat treating of cylinders for greater strength began about 1920.

S&W does not recommend shooting Plus P in revolvers made before they began using model numbers about 1957-58. Some disagree, but I believe their metallurgy improved then, and Chic Gaylord noted this in his, "Handgunner's Guide", published in 1960. Older ones probably won't blow up, but the relatively softer steel will wear sooner, and you'll see issues like cylinder endshake developing sooner. The very hot types rated as Plus P, like those made by Buffalo Bore, should not be fired in these older guns.

 

[CanadianSon]

I just received an email back from Roy Jinks himself saying it was shipped to Western Canada in April 1930 but not to the RCMP. So it probably went to the APP then was transferred to the RCMP ~1933 after the APP disolved.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jinks, Roy [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-15-15 3:35 PM
To: xxx
Subject: Re: RCMP 38 Special Military & Police

xxxx, the .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change serial number 629946 was shipped to Western Canada, in April 1930, however, it would require a research letter to determine to whom it was shipped. It was not shipped directly to the RCMP. I hope that this helps. Roy G. Jinks, S&W Historian.