realoading .44 Special: some thoughts and questions

[Forrest r]

The 624's a known/famous for their .432" throats. Until I used .432"/.4325" lead/cast/swaged bullets accuracy wasn't there. If you have a 624 with cylinders throats less than .432" diameter, your cylinder has more than most likely been replaced.

I've owned several of them over the decades and every 1 of them had .432" cylinder throats.

I've used cast/lead bullets in revolvers with as much as 3/1000th's difference between the cylinder throats and the bbl. Accuracy really started to fall off if I went any larger.

I finely sold that 624 pictured above. Had 4 different firearms chambered in the 44cal's. Got tired of having a "special" bullet or a 624 only bullet when .430" bullets worked in the other 3 firearms.

The 624 cylinders are not only over sized they are over sized a looooooong way (I'm not yelling at anyone with the loooong thing). That's why they had a recall and tested every 624 to see if a 44mag round would fit into the cylinders of the 624. Hence the red "S"in the circle stamped on the s&w blue box.

I even tried hollow based bullets, namely hbwc's from a custom mold, keith hb swc's from a lyman 429422 mold and hb fn from a raphine mold. The 624 cylinders were too long/big for those hb bullets to expand/seal the cylinders unless the bullets were sized to .431"/.432".

That is why the statement, look at the picture of the 624 I posted above and you can see that the .432" hbwc's would fit the 624's cylinder with them sticking 1/2" above the case.

 

[cowboy4evr]

at liberty : There is a " piece " of pipe in front of the cylinder . I strongly believe it's called " a barrel " . The bullet exits the " barrel " on it's way to the target , not coming straight out of the cylinder . He needs to check the barrel FIRST for the groove diameter and to see if he has tight spots at various locations inside the barrel . By driving a lead slug all the way through the barrel he will get this info .
I have 3 , 44's and I cast / size .431 for all three . The accuracy is good and no leading . Let me say right here that if I take out a few flakes of lead when cleaning , I don't consider that a leaded barrel . If I get strips 1" long or more , then I have a problem . Others might have a different opinion on the subject of " a leaded barrel " .
I have 25-5 (45 colt) , which are notorious for having oversize throats . The cylinder throats on mine measure .456-.457 . The barrel grooves measure .4525 . I cast / size my bullets .454 . It is one of " The " most accurate revolvers I have and no leading problems. I bought it real cheap because the guy that had it was real upset about the cylinder throat measurements . His loss--my gain.
He hasn't mentioned the " groove diameter " of the barrel . Is there tight spots inside the barrel , maybe where they " roll ' stamped the caliber/company name on the side of the barrel ? Is there a tight spot where the barrel threads onto the frame when indexing the front sight to the rear sight ? Is the barrel rough inside from machine marks ? You can start out with an oversize cast bullet but the above area's can / will shrink down the size of a cast bullet if they are not fixed , causing a problem of lead in the barrel and even accuracy problems . It takes time / effort and experience and knowledge to shoot cast bullets successfully from revolvers , accurately and w/o a leaded barrel . So telling someone w/o knowing the above , mentioned , important facts just to throw away what is , I'm sure a perfectly good cylinder is " pure nonsense " .

 

[cowboy4evr]

Too many people associate a " leaded " barrel with only a problem with the cylinder throats . The throats are too small---yup there's the problem . Cylinder throats too large --- yup there's the problem .
Stop looking for just the " easy " fix , ream out the throats if too small or get mad at S&W , claim the problem is oversize throats and send it back to the factory . Gentlemen , there's more to it than that . I learned from the best , Veral Smith @ LBT Molds . I bought his little book , corresponded with him several times . Veral has forgotten more than most will ever know on the subject of shooting cast bullets successfully in revolvers , pistols and yes , even rifles . Everything that I read and he told me I found to be true . I had several with tight spots where the barrel threads onto the frame . I had to use a mallet to get the slug past that spot . I found tight spots where they roll stamped the barrel with markings , I had rough spots in the barrel from machine marks . Driving a lead slug slowly down a barrel , you can feel all of the above , if present . Those area's effect a barrels performance , leading / and or accuracy .
You can disagree / bash me all you want . But at the end of the day my revolvers shoot just fine and I've never changed out a cylinder claiming oversize throats . Do yours shoot satisfactorily ?

 

[cowboy4evr]

Lead slugs for checking the barrel for the groove diameter , rough / tight spots etc , are available from Veral @ LBT Molds . They have a little wire tip , for ease of removing after just entering the muzzle to get the groove diameter . They are very inexpensive , available in many calibers .

 

[riversalmon]

Good On Ya !

10X on Veral Smith. I've been a student of his for over 20 years and he knows his stuff. Found one of his little books many years ago and a lead hardness tester then never looked back. If you are going to shoot lead, save yourself a lot of frustration and read the man who wrote the book on cast bullets.

 

[at_liberty]

at liberty : There is a " piece " of pipe in front of the cylinder . I strongly believe it's called " a barrel " . The bullet exits the " barrel " on it's way to the target , not coming straight out of the cylinder . He needs to check the barrel FIRST for the groove diameter and to see if he has tight spots at various locations inside the barrel . By driving a lead slug all the way through the barrel he will get this info .
I have 3 , 44's and I cast / size .431 for all three . The accuracy is good and no leading . Let me say right here that if I take out a few flakes of lead when cleaning , I don't consider that a leaded barrel . If I get strips 1" long or more , then I have a problem . Others might have a different opinion on the subject of " a leaded barrel " .
I have 25-5 (45 colt) , which are notorious for having oversize throats . The cylinder throats on mine measure .456-.457 . The barrel grooves measure .4525 . I cast / size my bullets .454 . It is one of " The " most accurate revolvers I have and no leading problems. I bought it real cheap because the guy that had it was real upset about the cylinder throat measurements . His loss--my gain.
He hasn't mentioned the " groove diameter " of the barrel . Is there tight spots inside the barrel , maybe where they " roll ' stamped the caliber/company name on the side of the barrel ? Is there a tight spot where the barrel threads onto the frame when indexing the front sight to the rear sight ? Is the barrel rough inside from machine marks ? You can start out with an oversize cast bullet but the above area's can / will shrink down the size of a cast bullet if they are not fixed , causing a problem of lead in the barrel and even accuracy problems . It takes time / effort and experience and knowledge to shoot cast bullets successfully from revolvers , accurately and w/o a leaded barrel . So telling someone w/o knowing the above , mentioned , important facts just to throw away what is , I'm sure a perfectly good cylinder is " pure nonsense " .

But if you don't cast, and the throats are really off of commonly available bullet sizes, the gun has to change, or like a number have mentioned here, be sold off.

 

[cowboy4evr]

There is I believe a third option !
If I didn't want to go through all the work to shoot cast bullets successfully and I wasn't ready to dump the gun on the market I think I would turn to plated copper bullets . I'm not seeing what I would call a lot difference in price between the two anymore .
I have bought copper plated bullets for a semi auto from Xtreme Bullets . At holidays they offer great deals , discounts + free shipping . I was very happy with the quality and the price . IMO , I believe they would be satisfactory to use , solving many otherwise problems .

 

[Daimler1989]

UPDATE

Gentleman

I slugged the gun and this is what I found out: chamber throats are .432, barrel is .429.
Am I right to assume that bullets with a .432 diameter would be the way to go to increase accuracy and minimize leading or would the benefit only be marginal and i should stick to .431 bullets regarding the higher effort (commercially cast .432 bullets are not available in Germany, so I would have to make them on my own or find someone who casts them)?

What excatly happens when a bullet with a smaller diameter leaves the overbore chamber and enters the smaller bore barrel?

regards from Germany
Ulrich

 

[cowboy4evr]

YOu probably need cast bullets at least .430-.431 in diameter . Did you drive the slug all the way through the barrel and then take another measurement ? That will tell you a lot , trust me !
I still suspicion you have a tight spot where the barrel threads onto the frame . It will feel like you hit a brick wall with the slug when you get to that junction point and if there is a tight spot there .
Don't get too caught up about oversize throats . There have been experiments where they took the barrel off completely , fired cast bullets into a bullet trap . they measured the base before and after being fired. It had been " bumped " up in size by the pressure of the fired round .
Remember , it's better to have slightly oversize throats and undersize . Let's take the time to drive a lead slug all the way down the barrel before buying more cast bullets of different sizes . I feel that you are just throwing away good money otherwise . I think you will find the trouble . I suggest spending $15 or so and buy veral smiths booklet , " Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets " . Or , as I mentioned above try some plated bullets from someone like Xtreme , Berry's , Ranier etc. That could be an easy fix for you . Shooting cast is not difficult , once you learn how to check for trouble area's and how to remedy them . It's just a journey in education and like I just mentioned , Verals Booklet explains it all and how to fix . I'm simply sharing many years of experience in shooting cast from revolvers . So Daimler 1989 , there you have it , several possible suggestions , I hope I have helped you .

 

[Daimler1989]

@cowboy4evr

I did dirve 1 slug from muzzle through the whole barrel and could not feel different resistance at any point of the barrel. I drove another slug from forcing cone into the bore as far as I could push it with a punch and then back out. Both have .429 diameter.

as for the different bullet types. I tried eveything I could get in .429/.430/.431. I did lead bullets, copper plated, hard cast (25 brinell), even teflon coated .431. best accuracy still give jacketed bullets.

Maybe the gun has it's accuracy that can't be improved. And my 27-2 and 27-3 are simply more accurate...

regards
Ulrich

 

[cowboy4evr]

You have decent accuracy with jacketed bullets but the others are not acceptable . I'm beginning to wonder if you have a " timing " problem . The cylinder is not fully lined up with the barrel when you fire a round. Jacketed bullets would be more forgiving , they won't shave off any of the bullet . If the hand (pawl ) is just a tad too long or the crane is bent , that can cause timing problems . Understand , most revolvers , (smith & wesson included ) allow a bit , a very small bit of free rotation to compensate for this . But maybe your is just too far off to compensate . Without being able to look at the item , it's hard for me to really say what the problem is . I will tell you this though , if / when you find it , you will have a revolver that is as accurate as your 357's . Don't give up , there's an answer you just have to dig deeper . A good gunsmith will find it and correct it . Sending it back to the factory , explaining thoroughly what is the problem could be the best answer if a good gunsmith isn't available there . I would not give up and settle for only jacketed bullets or get disgusted and sell it . There's an answer for what's causing accuracy problems .
As far as your problem with unburnt powder , maybe you are flaring the case mouth too much and giving up a lot of " neck tension " . The crimp does very little to hold the bullet long enough for the powder to completely burn . Neck tension is very important . Just flare the case barely enough to " just " start to accept the base of the bullet and no more . I use fast burning powders on my target loads in 44's , using lighter bullets sometimes . Your powder selection , probably is fine .

 

[rwsmith]

There are bullet casters.....

Just to add what others have said. I know there are some casting places that will size the bullet to what you want. I don't know if they do that in Germany.

If you can get a slightly oversized bullet, with some equipment you can size them down to whatever you want. If no one does that closer to you, you can consider casting and sizing your own.

There is a place here that makes custom molds for bullets. I'm not sure if shipping would be a problem for something like that.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a gunsmith to slug the barrel so that you know exactly what the groove diameter is.

Maybe you can 'catch' a bullet in some soft material and weigh it to see if shaving is a problem.

 

[992B]

I load for four 44 specials. One load stands out, 240 grain lead SWC, 7.0 grains of Unique and Remington large pistol primers. Be sure the cases have tight throats and use a moderate crimp. One load for four guns made by three different manufacturers, one double action and three single actions. If you have an old TripleLock, back the powder back to 6.0 grains out of respect for these fine old guns. Gary

 

[keith44spl]

I've hand-loaded the 44 Special for almost half a century....

For the last 40 years I have load the original 'Keith' hard cast at .430
over an average measure of Unique for mid-range everyday use.

For defense, the same bullet over a reasonable amount of 2400,
in the neighborhood of 1000 to 1100 fps.

For hunting loads, the ol time E. Keith load in solid head cases works for me.

I have found that not all powders burn completely.

Also, the length of the Keith SWCs, when fired, the short of free-bore,
the full diameter forward driving band engages the forcing cone,
thus causing the slug to expand to fill the cylinder chamber throat
before exiting the case mouth, thus centering the bullet with
the axis of the bore as close as is reasonable with a revolver.


That is my story.....I's sticking to it.

As for the POI vs POA.........
The height of the sights may need to be re-calibrated for a particular loading.

.

 

[Forrest r]

The issue is the 624 cylinder holes themselves. They are big/over sized/whatever you want to call them. Not only are they over sized, they are over sized a long way.

I respect everyone's input that posted in this thread. There's a lot of knowledge posted here. Can the cylinder issues be overcome??? Absolutely. I've owned/shot 624's in the past. It took some tinkering to get the right balance between the bullet diameter/alloy/lube. But then again I cast/swage/make my own bullets. The OP does not have these tooling/casting capabilities at his disposal.

The real issue:
The cylinder is 1.7" long
The 44spl case/the part that goes into the cylinder is 1.1" long (case body only/minus the case rim).
Where that 1.1" long case rests/ends in the 1.7" cylinder is .451"+ in diameter.
The ends of the cylinders are .432" in diameter.
The taper of the cylinder starts @ .451+ where the bullet leaves the case, then has .6" of free bore that shrinks down to .432".

Hence my using a .432" hollow based bullet that stuck out of the case .5".

Couple that with the bbl swaging a .432" bullet down 3/1000th's (.432" cylinder throats/.429" bbl). I've never had any luck with accuracy when a bullet got swaged down more the 3/1000th's in a bbl. The .432"/.429 is right on the edge of failure.

Anything under pressure goes to the least point of resistance. The undersized bullets in those .432" holes are not only going forward, they are going sideways/bouncing back and forth in the looonnnnggg freebore of the cylinders.

You need a:
.432" bullet
A bullet with a +/- 8bhn alloy
A bullet with a long body (wc/hbwc) that's basically a .432" cylinder.

You are never going to find any real accuracy with that pistol unless you either use jacketed bullets or a soft bullet sized to .432".

At least that's what I've found after owing a couple different 624's over 20+ year period.

Good luck

 

[M29since14]

I've never seen a 24-3 or 624 with normal (.429-.430) exit bores. In the OP's gun, I would be loading a .432" cast bullet with pretty soft metal - straight wheelweights, or wheelweights with a dab of tin and maybe a little extra pure lead.

Any reasonable powder should work well and accuracy should be as good as the gun is going to do. I wouldn't pay the slightest attention to the unburned powder thing. It doesn't hurt anything and you are going to clean your gun anyway.

The .003" difference between barrel and cylinder exit bores is more than you'd like but it is not going to be dangerous and/or destroy accuracy. I have been shooting .432" bullets in my 29-2s for years now. As long as you have big enough chambers to handle the loaded rounds (my guns do) there should be no problems.

Replacing the cylinder... good luck!

 

[GCF]

At one point I had a nice 4". M624. Cylinder throats were .432", which is normal for 624's, & older 29's / 629's.

I got excellent results w/ a 260WFN / .432" / 10BHN, from an LBT mould - over VV N-330. 6.8 grain charge.

Bought the bullets from a guy in Alaska (off the Cast Boolits Forum), that did business as "The Bull Shop". Nice, meticulous guy, w/ a family run business. Not sure if he is still around - or not. Also manufactured a great bullet lube (quality comparable to LBT Blue), called Speed Green.

 

[littlerocknroller]

Hallo Ulrich,
mein S&W Sammlerfreund hat mich auf Deinen Artikel aufmerksam gemacht. Ich habe seit kurzem einen 624 und einige Ladungen ausprobiert. Wenn Du möchtest, kannst Du mich anrufen: 0212 2219100
Gruss
Rainer (aus Solingen)

 

[Daimler1989]

thanks everyone for all these suggestions. I am corresponding with a commercial caster here in Germany to implement the .432 diameter solution with a bullet weight between 210 und 225 grains. I will keep you informed about what I could achieve, hopefully soon.

@littlerocknroller
Ich bin diese Woche oft unterwegs. Wann ist eine gute Zeit zum Anrufen? Meinst Du mit "Artikel" das Posting oder den Artikel über die .44 Special im DWJ, den ich mal geschrieben habe?

regards
Ulrich

 

[littlerocknroller]

Hallo,
ich hatte mich auf das Posting im Forum bezogen, auf den mich mein Sammlerkollege aufmerksam gemacht hat. Ich habe einen Anruf von 02596 87451 bekommen. Warst Du das? Ich bin eigentlich Abends immer zu erreichen.
Gruss
Rainer