Gamecock speaks a great truth.
That's why Univibe uses 124 grain NATO ball in all his self defense weapons. Because it WILL penetrate.
Reconsidering 9mm for Home Defense Given LAPD Shooting
- Thread starter giants1
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Gamecock speaks a great truth.
That's why Univibe uses 124 grain NATO ball in all his self defense weapons. Because it WILL penetrate.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltHVEK9bgME[/ame]
The total lack of awareness and cluelessness of so many of those "shoppers" who are wandering around and walking right into/up to the assailant is mind boggling.
What a terrible tragedy for the family of the 14 year old and the officers involved.
The total lack of awareness and cluelessness of so many of those "shoppers" who are wandering around and walking right into/up to the assailant is mind boggling.
What a terrible tragedy for the family of the 14 year old and the officers involved.
I believe the round that killed the girl was a miss that did not hit the suspect.
Sheet rock and penetration
Years ago I bought some of those 38 cal. Speer plastic bullets and plastic cases that snapped together and you pressed a primer into the case for power. Those light plastic bullets with flat tips went through a cardboard target and stuck in a 5/8" sheet rock wall much to my surprise. Thinking any kind of real round wouldn't go through a sheet rock wall is folly.
Years ago I bought some of those 38 cal. Speer plastic bullets and plastic cases that snapped together and you pressed a primer into the case for power. Those light plastic bullets with flat tips went through a cardboard target and stuck in a 5/8" sheet rock wall much to my surprise. Thinking any kind of real round wouldn't go through a sheet rock wall is folly.
I agree.
It's just different ends of the continuum. Mr. Airweight J-frame doesn't shoot enough to ever shoot that gun accurately and sprays 5 rounds down range.
If Mr. High Capacity Semi-auto also doesn't practice, he's probably banking on more rounds making up for the lack of marksmanship. But I'm not sure he'll really get many more rounds off before he's shot and killed or the assailant leaves. It's extremely rare for more than 5 shots to be fired even in a multiple officers involved law enforcement shoot.
It's not directly relevant, but do know that 'RCL-09' is very precisely the US-funded Philippine National Police Regional Crime Lab in Zamboanga City.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6pMZ71LAic[/ame]
Please go to 0:38 on the video...
Where in the world did you find that??
It's a scene out of one of my favorite WWII movies "They Were Expendable" When you mentioned Zamboanga I recalled the scene.
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About 8 or 9 years ago my nephew had a ND with 9mm ball at his home. He called me shaken and I went over there to check it out. I took the pics.
Entry into the living room wall:
The garage wall:
Into one side of a ladder:
Out the other side:
I dug this out of an exit door:
Entry into the living room wall:
The garage wall:
Into one side of a ladder:
Out the other side:
I dug this out of an exit door:
Frankly, my concern would be why when of 4 or 5 officers together responding that knew the suspect was, " ....hitting her on the side of the head..." from dispatch, one or two immediately fired on the suspect who was several feet away from the victim, not attacking her, trying to leave (meaning escape), and who did not have a firearm or knife in his hand, but a chain and lock.
Listen to dispatch; watch what happened. Not good for risk management.
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Miami_JBT
US Veteran
Way back in the day when I was issued an M16 we were all told that the 5.56x45 M193 ball round had more wounding potential than the 7.62x51 M80 ball round because it tumbled and fragmented.
The truth is a little bit more complicated.
If you go back far enough in ordinance history, you'll find that same "the new bullet is more lethal because it tumbles" argument going all the way back to the "smaller" .45-700-500 and .45-70-405 gr bullets. Then you see it repeated with the .30-40 Krag and the .30-06.
The British invested a lot of effort in determining the optimum diameter in their pre-WWI effort to replace the .303 British. The ultimate outcome of those studies was an intention in 1912 to adopt the .276 Enfield, which used a 165 gr .282" diameter bullet at 2,785 fps.
However with the onset of WWI the .276 Enfield and the Pattern 13 Enfield developed to use it were cancelled as they had no desire to add a second cartridge to the logistics problem. They did however modify the Pattern 13 to fire the .303 Brit round and fielded it as the Pattern 14. Post WWI, they had hundreds of millions of rounds of .303 Brit ammo and hundreds of thousands of rifles chambered for it so any thought of swapping service rifles and cartridges was dropped.
Fast forward to post WWII, they were again looking to rep place the . 303 Brit and SMLE and developed the .280 British round, using a 140 gr .284" bullet this time in an intermediate sized cartridge at 2500 fps. I'm not sure it would have still tumbled and fragmented at that velocity, but by now the goal was a round with less recoil and better controllability in a select fire rifle.
The powers that be in the US Army rejected the idea and instead pushed for the 7.62x51, giving .30-06 ballistics in a 1/2" shorter cartridge that was better suited to select fire weapons.
And of course within a decade of adoption the US abandoned it for the intermediate 5.56x45 round with a 55 gr FMJ round at about 3250 fps that happened to tumble and fragment at velocities above about 2700 fps and still tumbled above 2600 fps.
Ballistic gel testing with M193 out of a 20" barrel is always interesting. You get a .224" hole for about the first 4 inches before the bullet yaws and tumbles and at short range usually fragments. It leaves a permanent cavity about 3" in diameter and about 5" long with about 12" of total penetration, and quite often than not the largest remaining fragment of the will leave through the sides of a 6"x6"x16" gel block.
However velocity is critical. In the M16A1s 20" barrel and 3250 fps muzzle velocity you'd stay above 2600 fps out to about 175 yards. At the other extreme in an 11.5" XM177E2 the muzzle velocity of M193 is down around 2800 fps, so the range at which you can expect the bullet to tumble is only about 50 yards.
In a 16" carbine the muzzle velocity will be around 3000 fps and the tumbling effect can be expected out to about 100 yards.
All three however are plenty adequate for self defense purposes.
M855 is less impressive. The military seems to have forgotten what made the concept work when they went with the 62 gr SS109 round designed to penetrate a steel pot at 800 yards. But that heavier weight means less velocity, about 150 fps less in a 20" barrel. That's still enough to get the same tumbling effect to about 150 yards in the 20" M16A2, but in the 14.7" M4 that range decreases to about 60 yards.
But again, both are still adequate for personnel defense purposes.
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In any case, if you actually hit an assailant with either the M193 or M855 rounds at legitimate self defense ranges it probably isn't going to over penetrate.
If you miss however, both rounds will almost certainly penetrate at least one interior wall.
Soft points are a different story. Even in the .223 Rem most are intended to provide better penetration in game animals, so they are more likely to demonstrate controlled expansion and are less likely to fragment.
No.
I've been to 4 shootings with M193 ball. One round penetrated the suspect's head (at 50 feet), passed through a back trailer wall, then into the roof of the next trailer, stopping mostly intact (3 grains of jacket remained in the suspect's head) in the composite on the roof. The next penetrated thin sheet metal of a commercial tractor, blew the right kneecap off a suspect, passed through his heart, then passed through the seat, the sleeper wall, and stopped intact in a sleeper mattress from 9 feet off the muzzle.
No need to go on. No one can accurately predict what specific bullets will do in individual circumstances.
I've been to 4 shootings with M193 ball. One round penetrated the suspect's head (at 50 feet), passed through a back trailer wall, then into the roof of the next trailer, stopping mostly intact (3 grains of jacket remained in the suspect's head) in the composite on the roof. The next penetrated thin sheet metal of a commercial tractor, blew the right kneecap off a suspect, passed through his heart, then passed through the seat, the sleeper wall, and stopped intact in a sleeper mattress from 9 feet off the muzzle.
No need to go on. No one can accurately predict what specific bullets will do in individual circumstances.
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I'll be praying for the family of the child. I'll also be praying for the officers involved.
That is the best we can do.
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The Glaser-type round strong suit is that it's likely to break up on harder surfaces, like marble office walls. Obviously it's of limited use. IMO an individual carrying or the agency issuing ammo needs to carefully research what ammo is best at the time ammo for use is purchased. The specific gun(s) it will be used in needs consideration. For many the best ammo that consistently meets the FBI 12" protocol gets the nod. The best may change from year to year.
The other issue is training stress on being aware of a target's background and where a fired projectile will stop. For a home owner, it's possible to develop a fire plan for their home from likely points of engagement. It will become apparent that some points offer limited or nil opportunities for engagement. For LE training or self defense away from known territory it's a much thornier boggle.
The other issue is training stress on being aware of a target's background and where a fired projectile will stop. For a home owner, it's possible to develop a fire plan for their home from likely points of engagement. It will become apparent that some points offer limited or nil opportunities for engagement. For LE training or self defense away from known territory it's a much thornier boggle.
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Yes, it is a tragedy when an innocent is killed, particularly when young.
However, since neither of us were present at the time and place, at the time I commented, information was, and to a degree still is, both fragmented and incomplete. I reserve judgement until all facts are in. It's premature to state your conclusion until all information is available.
There's been a lot of electrons dispersed here on what bullets do vis a vis drywall. I'd suggest that, range rules permitting, some of you pick up some 2' x2' drywall repair squares, drywall screws and a 2x4 from your local building supply and do your own experimentation. Several targets lined up behind the "wall" will let you know if the bullet comes through intact, tumbling, fragmenting or whatever. I found it educational. Some water filled milk jugs can give you an idea of energy levels. The gypsum in the drywall is good for the grass.
AJ
US Veteran
Any round that is used as a defensive/offensive load will prentrate more things than you realize. Be sure of your target and try like heck not to miss!
