Hello. My S&W letter advises me that my S&W 44 double action frontier model was shipped on Feb. 1st, 1915 to Shelton Payne Arms of El Paso with the pearl grips that it's wearing & nickel finish (5% left, if that). Since it appears to have "kill marks" & was shipped to El Paso right in the middle of the Mexican Revolution, I'd surely like to know more. Has anyone had any success inquiring about the existence of Shelton Payne records? "lots of luck" RIGHT?
Record search/question
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If any such records exist, they're likely to be found in a university or museum's archives. But a quick Google search didn't turn up anything, so you may be left to your imagination.
I do see a few academic papers on the Mexican Revolution that mention Shelton Payne, but I doubt that they will have details on specific guns. The next time I'm at one of my college libraries I'll pull a few of them to see what they say.
In any case, it's neat that you've got that much documentation on your gun. And, that it still appears to match its factory configuration.
Mike
I do see a few academic papers on the Mexican Revolution that mention Shelton Payne, but I doubt that they will have details on specific guns. The next time I'm at one of my college libraries I'll pull a few of them to see what they say.
In any case, it's neat that you've got that much documentation on your gun. And, that it still appears to match its factory configuration.
Mike
THANKS! Google tells me that Shelton-Payne was "colorful" to say the least, selling to "all factions" during the Mexican Revolution. I find that our govt. was aware of Mexican "agents" (aka spies) operating in El Paso, watching Shelton-Payne to see who they sold to. I also read that the Colt SAA that we've all seen George Patton wearing, was bought there.
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The wholesalers, distributors and retailers often were "characters." And as was often the case, they were happy to sell to whoever had the money to buy. So it goes with arms sales, and so it goes for just about anything else that a merchant can sell.
The scarce retailer records that I've seen in my research often don't have specific serial numbers listed ... so even if their sales books exist, it may be a "needle in a haystack" type problem to find the specific sales records that you're looking for. All the same, Godspeed ... miracles happen.
Mike
Factory Pearl grips?
I have a few " original" Distributor catalogs from the very early 1900's where Smith & Wesson is advertising their Factory Pearl grips having the Gold inlaid S&W logo and also trash talking Distributor made Pearl grips as inferior. Am I missing something?
Murph
I have a few " original" Distributor catalogs from the very early 1900's where Smith & Wesson is advertising their Factory Pearl grips having the Gold inlaid S&W logo and also trash talking Distributor made Pearl grips as inferior. Am I missing something?
Murph
mike christensen
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does your pistol have the gold S&W inlay and would like to know your serial numbers and how yours relates to mine #37938
I would guess yours was among the last to be shipped
About the grips
From my letter as signed by Roy Jinks: "We have researched your Smith & Wesson .44 Double Action Frontier, caliber .44 Winchester (44-40). Company records indicate that this handgun, with serial 13,300 was shipped from the factory on February 1, 1915, and shipped to Shelton-Payne Arms Co., El Paso, Tx. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 6.5 inch barrel, nickel finish and pearl grips. This shipment was for a unit of this model in the above configuration." As you can see, there is no medallion in the grips but it is definitely wearing pearl grips which after removing, show very deep rust staining.
From my letter as signed by Roy Jinks: "We have researched your Smith & Wesson .44 Double Action Frontier, caliber .44 Winchester (44-40). Company records indicate that this handgun, with serial 13,300 was shipped from the factory on February 1, 1915, and shipped to Shelton-Payne Arms Co., El Paso, Tx. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 6.5 inch barrel, nickel finish and pearl grips. This shipment was for a unit of this model in the above configuration." As you can see, there is no medallion in the grips but it is definitely wearing pearl grips which after removing, show very deep rust staining.
It is correct to assume that pearl stocks from the "teens" would have had gold medallions, I notice that right stock does not fit well and that is not typical of S&W. The stocks appear to be made for the 44 DA, since the one that shows has a square front toe, not rounded as the early K frame stocks were made.
We probably cannot be sure either way, but factory fit stocks from that era would certainly not have looked like that and we know that MOP does not shrink with age, so . . .? ? ?
We probably cannot be sure either way, but factory fit stocks from that era would certainly not have looked like that and we know that MOP does not shrink with age, so . . .? ? ?
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Inusuit
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The pearl grips now on the revolver are not necessarily the ones that shipped with it.
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This.
Mother of pearl is not the most robust material. It could have shipped with MOP grips that were subsequently damaged, and the pair that are on it now were a (period?) replacement.
Mike
Sounds logical to me!
S&W factory "trash" talking MOP grips
Got to love those marketing guru's of the 1915 era. The post above mentioning Smith & Wesson "trash talking" about any non factory MOP grips being inferior to S&W.....I can relate with photo proof.
My 22-32 HFT Letters as shipping September 20, 1915 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis MO. It came to me with original box, some paperwork, and a bronze brush cleaning rod still wrapped in some sort of rice paper.
Please note the inside cover of the box showed instructions for use, whereas the bottom of the box has a printed caution about the MOP grips. The caution is printed, not a separate insert. Then there is a separate insert about using an oily rag to wipe the gun down.
Amazing that these paper items survived so long, but as far as I know this gun sat in a collection for well over 100 years before I got it.
The trash talk is real, but those grips on the OP gun look pretty good to me, so it doesn't really matter if the fit seems slightly off after 100 plus years.
Got to love those marketing guru's of the 1915 era. The post above mentioning Smith & Wesson "trash talking" about any non factory MOP grips being inferior to S&W.....I can relate with photo proof.
My 22-32 HFT Letters as shipping September 20, 1915 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis MO. It came to me with original box, some paperwork, and a bronze brush cleaning rod still wrapped in some sort of rice paper.
Please note the inside cover of the box showed instructions for use, whereas the bottom of the box has a printed caution about the MOP grips. The caution is printed, not a separate insert. Then there is a separate insert about using an oily rag to wipe the gun down.
Amazing that these paper items survived so long, but as far as I know this gun sat in a collection for well over 100 years before I got it.
The trash talk is real, but those grips on the OP gun look pretty good to me, so it doesn't really matter if the fit seems slightly off after 100 plus years.
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Charlie, it does matter to collectors if a stocks like those are original to the gun and can make from hundreds to thousands of dollars in value difference. I am also sure that it mattered to many original buyers who got stuck with thin pearl stocks installed by a distributor but complained to S&W about their shoddy product! BTW, it is not trash talk when reacting to inferior distributor stocks put on S&W revolvers without the buyer knowing the difference even a hundred years ago. It was very important that the S&W get in front of these poor quality stocks before they started to affect the company's reputation. That label was put on hundreds of thousands of boxes in the early 1900s.
It was very difficult and quite expensive to find shells thick enough to manufacture full thickness MOP stocks to match the dimensions of the wood of hard rubber stocks put on S&W revolvers. The distributors did not seem to care and almost always put on thin pearl stocks which, if you have ever held a gun with them installed, feel totally inadequate to give the shooter a solid grip. Ultimately, the factory stopped installing factory pearls due to the lack of supply for high quality thick MOP.
Stocks from 1915 would have had medallions on the stocks and they would have fit perfectly and I mean perfectly. Workmen were undoubtedly proud of their work and it contributes to the fact that so may of these guns are still available over 100 years later.
It was very difficult and quite expensive to find shells thick enough to manufacture full thickness MOP stocks to match the dimensions of the wood of hard rubber stocks put on S&W revolvers. The distributors did not seem to care and almost always put on thin pearl stocks which, if you have ever held a gun with them installed, feel totally inadequate to give the shooter a solid grip. Ultimately, the factory stopped installing factory pearls due to the lack of supply for high quality thick MOP.
Stocks from 1915 would have had medallions on the stocks and they would have fit perfectly and I mean perfectly. Workmen were undoubtedly proud of their work and it contributes to the fact that so may of these guns are still available over 100 years later.
Factory Pearls
Mr. Jinks in his book lists the stocks on the Baby Russian throughout production. A total of 25,548 Baby Russians were manufactured....Only 19 came with "factory" pearl grips. Only 9 came with factory ivory grips.
Yet you see them with Pearl and Ivory grips all the time with the seller claiming that these look like factory grips to me...The odds are that they are NOT.
Major Distributors would put special grips on any and all revolvers of that era. Engraving as well. If you think Distributor Pearl grips are worth the same as "Factory" pearl grips? You are not watching the auctions! NO COMPARISON!
A gun that letters with special factory grips is huge but it must also have the factory grips on the gun in order to retain the increased value. Finding factory Pearl grips for this gun would not be easy nor would it be cheap!
How many of the post 1900 Frontier Double actions came with factory pearls? NOT many! So, there aren't many Medallion Pearl grips out there! but there are a lot of Distributor Pearls. I have one also in my collection that looks a lot like the OP's.
Murph
Mr. Jinks in his book lists the stocks on the Baby Russian throughout production. A total of 25,548 Baby Russians were manufactured....Only 19 came with "factory" pearl grips. Only 9 came with factory ivory grips.
Yet you see them with Pearl and Ivory grips all the time with the seller claiming that these look like factory grips to me...The odds are that they are NOT.
Major Distributors would put special grips on any and all revolvers of that era. Engraving as well. If you think Distributor Pearl grips are worth the same as "Factory" pearl grips? You are not watching the auctions! NO COMPARISON!
A gun that letters with special factory grips is huge but it must also have the factory grips on the gun in order to retain the increased value. Finding factory Pearl grips for this gun would not be easy nor would it be cheap!
How many of the post 1900 Frontier Double actions came with factory pearls? NOT many! So, there aren't many Medallion Pearl grips out there! but there are a lot of Distributor Pearls. I have one also in my collection that looks a lot like the OP's.
Murph
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Correction - I stand corrected on pearl grips by S&W
Need to publish my apologies and the fact that I stand corrected by both Glowe and Bmur.
Since I posted that the OP's grips look nice to me, I now realize that the original factory Pearl Grips were something that Smith & Wesson took very seriously in 1915. I got my original box for the 1915 22-32 HFT and took a closeup of the printed caution note placed in that box when shipped on September 20, 1915.
When read they do state that their reputation is at heart of the caution note, so I can clearly see why S&W felt it necessary to add their logo to the original grips and I do agree that original pearl grips would be a whole different ballgame for collectors.
My double apologies to all for both high jacking the OP's post and for comments on non factory pearl grips.
Still learning as I go.
Need to publish my apologies and the fact that I stand corrected by both Glowe and Bmur.
Since I posted that the OP's grips look nice to me, I now realize that the original factory Pearl Grips were something that Smith & Wesson took very seriously in 1915. I got my original box for the 1915 22-32 HFT and took a closeup of the printed caution note placed in that box when shipped on September 20, 1915.
When read they do state that their reputation is at heart of the caution note, so I can clearly see why S&W felt it necessary to add their logo to the original grips and I do agree that original pearl grips would be a whole different ballgame for collectors.
My double apologies to all for both high jacking the OP's post and for comments on non factory pearl grips.
Still learning as I go.
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I have a New Model 3 and also a DA in .44 Russian, which have Mother of Pearl no-Medallion Stocks, and both sets are nice and fat, nothing thin or skimpy about them.
I have seen some thin ones though for various K and N frame Hand Ejectors.
I have seen some thin ones though for various K and N frame Hand Ejectors.
When was it shipped? Gold washed medallions did not start until about 1898, so any gun made before that date would have been plain. Earliest examples from the 1893 Columbian Exposition in Chicago were once thought to have the first medallion pearls, but it was later found that some of those exposition guns as photographed and in museum collections today had their plain pearls changed out in 1898, when all pearls started medallion production.
Robinson was one of the early suppliers of the pearl blanks to S&W and had been making pearl stocks as well as ivory going back to about 1868. The factory stopped purchasing pearl stocks around 1910 and worked off inventory until they were gone. It is also stated that pearls were reintroduced for a short time in the 1930s, but by the late 1930s, when S&W stated they could no longer rely on obtaining quality pearl for stocks.
Is it possible that non-medallion stocks could have been used in the middle 1910s? Maybe, but unlikely, plus the one's in question on the OP's 44 DA do not fit, so were not original to that particular gun.
As for thin or thick pearls, the standard explanation is that S&W demanded pearl shells of sufficient thickness that they could manufacture stocks that were the exact same dimensions as wood or hard rubber stocks. If one measures a few factory hard rubber or walnut stocks in place on their revolvers of the era, the fattest dimension will be that of what factory pearls would be. I suppose that there are some distributor pearls that had that proper thickness, but the vast majority were thinner than would have been acceptable for use at the factory.
Here is one of Young's engraved revolvers supposedly part of the1893 Chicago Exposition.
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