Red Dot On Carry Gun

[otasan56]

The trouble with red dots is that they are showing line-of-sight, and bullets don't follow line of sight. Bullets drop at 32.159 feet per second squared. If you are sighted in at 50 feet, then you'll be hitting high at 7 yards, and low at 25 yards. I stick to open sights.

 

[Kodiakco]

The trouble with red dots is that they are showing line-of-sight, and bullets don't follow line of sight. Bullets drop at 32.159 feet per second. If you are sighted in at 50 feet, then you'll be hitting high at 7 yards, and low at 25 yards. I stick to open sights.

Ummm... open sights are line of sight too.

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[Krell1]

WHY??? I can't see what benefit that would be. A carry gun is meant totally for self defense. Draw and use quickly. Maybe a laser mounted under the slide but a red dot? Not so much.

 

[rwt1405]

What ever floats your boat

BUT, I am really having a difficult time imagining how to conceal (you did say for a CCW, correct?) a handgun with a "red dot" in place.

Edit: Ok, I see you just said "carry gun", I can see how you could do it for outside carry, so sorry, my mistake

 

[Protected One]

Personally, I don't want to add any bulk to my carry gun, and since my eyesight doesn't require anything more than the original sites I wouldn't do it.

 

[otasan56]

Ummm... open sights are line of sight too.

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Yes, open sights are line of sights, and they don't cost extra $$.

 

[67tempest]

I can't see where a Red Dot sight on a carry gun would be of any real use in a Fight or Flight situation. If the circumstances arise where, God forbid you ever have to use your carry weapon what good would a Red Dot be. Are you going to ask the bad guy to hold on while you turn it on?

Your adrenaline will be pumping and your gonna yank it out of your holster and start blasting with no conscious thought to even using the sights.

 

[shell627]

I know people who carry long slide Glock 35 with trijicon rmr.They carry them aiwb and you never see them.Maybe its body shape it is partly a good well designed holster.But it does work for many people.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

You say potayto I say potahto....tomayto.....tomahto.......

I am used to the 3 white dot sights, and have no intention of buying anything else for my pistols. They work quite well.

I'm used to black front sights and fixed rear sights on my EDC K frame - anything affixed to that gun, lights or sights, would ruin it.

Some of my pistols and revolvers have variations on that theme but they all work great and I'd never affix a light or red dot, or a laser for that matter, on a gun that I need to use in an emergency. I can point shoot a handgun as well or better than most, never mind actually aiming the things, and I NEVER expect to have time to find the red dot.....YMMV.....and I'm old, with vision problems of my own. Still confident in my ability to hit any target that's attacking me or mine.

YMMV.......potato.....potahto....

 

[WR Moore]

I've been using red dot sights on rifles for more than 30 years- but with permanent iron backups. However, I don't think it's a real good idea on a defensive handgun, especially for carry use. In fact, after learning the hard way, I don't even use adjustable sights on duty/carry pistols. Half a rear sight leaf really, really sucks. The Trijicon demonstration is interesting, but my long term experience with their Reflex IIs was not good.

As noted, you need higher iron sights as backups in case of battery failure. I am kind of curious as to what one does if the lens in the red dot somehow can't be seen through. [Yeah, I know about the superpositioning of the dot on the target if you use both eyes-now add in no dot to superimpose.] Especially with a bolt on sight you can't remove in a few seconds.

Rastoff mentions presbyopia. I'm nearsighted, have presbyopia and astigmatism. Without my specs, I can see the iron sights fine. Red dots however, look like an impressionist painting. Could I probably use them? Dunno, expect it depends upon range and what I'm trying to shoot. I have used red dots successfully when my Rx was off slightly, but that may not be the case in the dark without my specs.

In short, I don't think so for me.

 

[digiroc]

FastFire 3 on Model 69 ...

Also equipped with a Crimson Trace laser grip for belt & suspenders approach to target acquisition.

The laser is for close work in dim conditions. The red dot accells in longer shots, and with this .44 I'm good to take deer at 75~100 yds. And it will pop soda cans all day at 50yds.

I shoot 225 gr. Hornady Critical Defense for home protection, deer hunting, and occasional carry.

This pancake OSWB is surprisingly concealable under even light coat or shirt worn open.

digiroc

 

[otasan56]

Also equipped with a Crimson Trace laser grip for belt & suspenders approach to target acquisition.

The laser is for close work in dim conditions. The red dot accells in longer shots, and with this .44 I'm good to take deer at 75~100 yds. And it will pop soda cans all day at 50yds.

I shoot 225 gr. Hornady Critical Defense for home protection, deer hunting, and occasional carry.

This pancake OSWB is surprisingly concealable under even light coat or shirt worn open.

digiroc

Nice looking rig.

 

[Kodiakco]

Yes, open sights are line of sights, and they don't cost extra $$.

And your point is?

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[Wise_A]

I can't see where a Red Dot sight on a carry gun would be of any real use in a Fight or Flight situation. If the circumstances arise where, God forbid you ever have to use your carry weapon what good would a Red Dot be. Are you going to ask the bad guy to hold on while you turn it on?

A modern red dot sight has huge battery life. For instance, my Ultradot got left on for two weeks straight in the safe, and I happily just used it to shoot a match.

Of course, you have to remember to switch it on when you put it on. But that's simply a matter of making it part of your loading and holstering procedure.

It's not one of my many objections (see above) to using one on a defensive handgun.

WHY??? I can't see what benefit that would be. A carry gun is meant totally for self defense. Draw and use quickly. Maybe a laser mounted under the slide but a red dot? Not so much.

I can't even imagine a red dot on a carry gun. (Crimson Trace may be an exception) If you have ever been in a situation where a carry gun must be drawn for your protection, then you know that sights are over rated... changing focus from an aggressor to trying to find a dot in a box will get you killed. This is serious stuff and there is "no second place winner".

If you can draw and naturally align iron sights, then you can do the same with a red dot sight.

If you cannot--then the problem is not your sights, it's your grip and draw technique.

The design of a red dot is such that it appears to be projected on the target. This means it's easy to focus on the dot because it's essentially far away.

The dot is not on the same focal plane as the target. What's actually happening is that you're not truly focused on the dot, and/or you're rapidly switching focus between the target and the dot. Young shooters are actually capable of doing this with iron sights. Their eyes trick them into thinking both sights and the target are actually in focus at the same time, when they're not.

It's just not a super-great habit.

The red dot is simply far more forgiving when it comes to where your focus is. Even among High Master Bullseye shooters, there's about a 50/50 split between those who focus on the target, and those who focus on the 'dot.

Yes, open sights are line of sights, and they don't cost extra $$.

You objected to red dots on the basis that the bullet's trajectory was parabolic, and the red dot sight was a straight line originating from a point above the bore. As such, it could only intersect the bullet's trajectory at two points.

Kodiak pointed out--correctly--that that was exactly how iron sights work. In fact, that's how all sighting systems work, since we can't look directly down the bore. The only thing you could possibly say is that red dot sights are further from the bore than the iron sights found on most defensive handguns, which is a fairly weak objection, as the difference is minute.

Kodiak saying that your objection to the red dot is invalid. Which it is.

You may as well have said, "I oppose the use of red dot sights on defensive pistols because they cost money."

---

There are several reasons not to use a red dot sight on a defensive handgun. Pick from one of them.

However, if your eyesight is poor enough to overcome those objections...

 

[Neumann]

The shear bulk of a red dot on the slide, and the difficulty finding a concealment holster for it put it way down on my list. It's something you would use for hunting or certain types of competition, not self defense.

At the top of my list are tritium night sights, either Trijicon or Meprolight. Next down (actually first for SD revolvers) are laser sights by Crimson Trace. For pistols they are mounted on the front rail with a switch extension to the grip. For revolvers, laser grips are the best option.

Neither types cause any sort of snagging potential, and can be accommodated by most holster makers. Laser grips require no special holster at all. The shining laser beams are a fiction found in television and movies. In real life the beam is invisible, and the dot only visible to the shooter.

I don't want or need to look "tacticool." My purpose is to survive in the unlikely event I face such a crisis.

 

[Kodiakco]

This article is three years old and has nothing to do with "tacticcol". To use that term is to be ignorant of the benefits of a MRDS on a pistol and to imply that this discussion is nothing but a farce.

Excerpt

Q: In your experience, what are the pros and cons of Red Dots on pistols?

A: So far we've identified several pros, which include anytime viewability of the sight, target focus versus sight focus shooting style and binocular versus monocular vision. Some of the cons that we experienced are increased cost for a duty pistol, a commitment to that pistol to ensure functionality and an understanding of the battery life, which for all purposes is quite good. There are a few others but they are more indicative of the red dot sights themselves.

Read More

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[ChattanoogaPhil]

With iron sights, it's a matter of aligning that which is already visible to the shooter. Acquiring a red dot is much different. Red dot works by reflecting an LED back to the shooter's eye. The dot is literally invisible until it isn't. The shooter can hold the handgun in front him and be looking though the optic glass to the target yet see no red dot. The shooter might have to hold the gun more up or down, left or right to first acquire the red dot. My wife was baffled the first time she picked up my Ruger .22 pistol searching for the dot. This is what folks are talking about when they say a red dot can be slow to pick up on a handgun. Now of course the shooter can train with a red dot mounted on a handgun to where it's very quick to pick up but this is typically from a practiced shooting position. Unfortunately, self defense situations aren't always a predetermined shooting script.

On the flip side, once the shooter has acquired the red dot and then aimed at target it is far more forgiving than iron sights. The shooter can move head/eyes up/down/left/right a considerable amount while still keeping the red dot in view and the red dot will stay on target as long as the gun is held steady (see vid), or the gun can move in relation to the shooters eye to put the dot onto the target and still remain in the shooters view. Iron sights are much different. Shooter's eye must remain in precise alignment with both front & rear sights else lose aim.

Battery life often is extended with either efficient circuitry or an auto-off. My Aimpoint is rated for 50,000 hours of continuous use with no shut off. There's about 9,000 hours in a year.

Sometimes a picture can speak better than words. I made this vid to illustrate what red dot manufactures mean when they advertise 'parallax free'. Notice that the red dot stays in view as well as on target even though the camera (shooter) does not stay in precise alignment with the optic. Can't do this with iron sights.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUoszCis3rA[/ame]

 

[Brasky]

Have fun when you need it and the battery is dead

 

[Wise_A]

The dot is literally invisible until it isn't. The shooter can hold the handgun in front him and be looking though the optic glass to the target yet see no red dot. The shooter might have to hold the gun more up or down, left or right to first acquire the red dot.

I would suggest that if you cannot grip, draw, aim, and immediately align a red dot, then you also cannot do the same with a iron sights.

The shooter can move head/eyes up/down/left/right a considerable amount while still keeping the red dot in view and the red dot will stay on target as long as the gun is held steady (see vid), or the gun can move in relation to the shooters eye to put the dot onto the target and still remain in the shooters view. Iron sights are much different. Shooter's eye must remain in precise alignment with both front & rear sights else lose aim.

...

Sometimes a picture can speak better than words. I made this vid to illustrate what red dot manufactures mean when they advertise 'parallax free'. Notice that the red dot stays in view as well as on target even though the camera (shooter) does not stay in precise alignment with the optic. Can't do this with iron sights.

They are mostly lying, to be honest.

Parallax occurs because there's no way to project light directly down the center of the sight. It has to be bounced with a mirror (well, technically two, and sometimes more). All's well and good, so long as your eye, the sight, and the target are all in a nice neat line.

If your eye is not in a nice neat line with the sight, then you get parallax. Or 'uncertainty'--the point of aim no longer references the point of impact it was zero'd to. It's not something that you can spend a bunch of money on and get rid of.

So a lot of companies that advertise their red dots as 'parallax free' are lying, and they know it.

What you can do is use Geometry (TM), along with a bunch of Money (TM) to minimize the affects of parallax. For instance, if you know that your target audience is going to shoot at 25 and 50 yards, you can apply some G and M to make sure that the area of parallax is as small as possible at those ranges. Or you can, for instance, make sure that the area of parallax is nice and round at most distances, instead of very tall or very wide.

 

[otasan56]

And your point is?

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Why pay the extra $$ for nothing?