Kodiakco
Member
Such a simplistic remark. Keep fresh batteries in it.
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Red Dot On Carry Gun
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Kodiakco
Member
Usually when I spend money I get something in return. A MRDS is a real advantage for my aging eyes.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
The difference is you can see the sights all the way until they are aligned. The red dot is completely invisible until it's aligned.
We became very fast with red dots sights on our M-4 type rifles. I never tried one on a handgun (yet) but I think speed would be a product of practice. Point shooting would be unchanged, just look thru or over your sights, imo.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Can't compare handguns with rifles when it comes to red dots. A rifle has 4 points of contact. One of those points is the cheek. The cheek is fixed in relation to the eye. Using this point of contact makes it very repeatable. Very easy to pick up the dot this way.
A handgun only has two points of contact and none that are fixed in relation to your eye.
OP
otasan56
US Veteran
I have aging eyes, and I wear glasses. But you may be right. At age 60, I may one day get a red dot for my G17.
I bought this to try out on my M&P 15-22 but I eventually found something I liked better for it so this was just sitting around doing nothing. I thought I'd experiment. I just put it on last night and haven't had a change to try it at the range yet.
I don't carry this gun so that part is not an issue. The slide moves freely and the bracket does not impede ejection at least while hand cycling the slide.
I think it looks cool, IMHO but again, it's for the range, not carrying.
I don't carry this gun so that part is not an issue. The slide moves freely and the bracket does not impede ejection at least while hand cycling the slide.
I think it looks cool, IMHO but again, it's for the range, not carrying.
Yes. I get what you're saying. I understood that point.
It's really not that hard. I'm in agreement with you that red dots are a "last-ditch" option for the vision-impaired, I just don't think that it's a really valid objection. I would suggest that that consideration should play into which sight a shooter selects. As in, the smallest, teensiest sight isn't always best.
I would also contend that many--umm, "minimally-skilled" shooters have to spend a lot of time hunting for iron sights. And from what I've seen observing new Bullseye shooters and those "minimally-skilled" folks, it takes about the same amount of time to find a missing 'dot as missing irons*.
I don't see sight selection as the problem there. You shouldn't be having to hunt for sights to begin with.
Which brings up a point--What baseline should we use when we judge a piece of gear?
You can come up with a level of incompetency to invalidate any piece of equipment. Just because somebody can't keep their finger off the trigger when holstering doesn't mean a Glock-alike is bad. And just because there are people that can't follow a proper holstering procedure doesn't mean I can't use an IWB holster.
Likewise, I don't think it's right to judge red dots (which I've already judged harshly) according to the metric of someone that hasn't taken the time to properly familiarize themselves and practice with their new sights.
*Bullseye shooters with red dots scoff at the idea of not finding a dot. Even a BE guy that wasn't a proponent of the Natural Point of Aim theory could easily close his eyes, raise and settle the gun, and open his eyes to find the dot somewhere inside the scoring rings. The reason being they're using a consistent grip.
Brasky said:
Well hell, I might as well not carry a flashlight either, then.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Right, but it's easier to find the sights than the dot.
The criteria we should use to judge a piece of equipment is two fold. First, it should be judged on functionality. If it doesn't work, it's useless. Also, it might work for a fun range day, but is it durable enough for defensive work?
Secondly, it must be judged on the user's ability and requirements. If you can't see the sights, and you need them, then you need to upgrade to a sighting system you can see. Even so, you have to be able to operate it quickly. I took the RMR off my pistol because I'm faster with iron sights. This is where personal preference is king. If it's what you want, and can shoot well with it, then it's the right thing for you. Obviously this is subjective criteria.
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Parallax is a predictable issue with red dot sights. The dot is focused at a certain distance, such as 80 feet. The dot will not move in relationship to the target at that range as you move your head from side to side (e.g., the dot is not centered in the lens). Objects closer than the focal point will move opposite to your head, relative to the dot. Object further away will appear to move in the same direction, but to a lesser extent.
That property works well for rifles, because your eye is centered more consistently, and your shooting range is generally longer.
I find that high quality sights, like Aimpoint, have less parallax than inexpensive (e.g., Bushnell) sights when tested in this fashion.
That property works well for rifles, because your eye is centered more consistently, and your shooting range is generally longer.
I find that high quality sights, like Aimpoint, have less parallax than inexpensive (e.g., Bushnell) sights when tested in this fashion.
ricklee4570
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Exactly! Open sights do not compensate for bullet drop.
The idea that a red dot on a carry/defense gun may be a solution for older eyes is flawed in my opinion. With aging eyes comes an aging mind and body. That means slower reflexes, fading quickness of movement and greater difficulty learning new things. In personal defense scenarios, time frames are already extremely compressed, even more so to older individuals who don't process information and react as quickly as they once did. It's just not sensible to make it more complicated unnecessarily. Inside 7 yards or so, an RMR offers no practical benefit to anyone, let alone an older individual.
A lot of folks over-complicate these matters by not focusing on and giving priority to what's needed the most in the context of the goal. Since we are discussing carry guns, the context here is personal defense. RMR's are great for recreational and sport applications, but self-defense and sport shooting are very different and what's suitable for one may not be appropriate for the other. It could even be a matter of actually being a disadvantage rather than just being of no or limited advantage. And despite being from a competitive shooter who actually has a red dot on his pistol, this video highlights the need for simplicity and on developing appropriate skills. Just apply context (concealed carry, personal defense and the fact that civilian defense encounters almost always take place inside a few yards max ) to what he is saying.
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I[/ame]
A lot of folks over-complicate these matters by not focusing on and giving priority to what's needed the most in the context of the goal. Since we are discussing carry guns, the context here is personal defense. RMR's are great for recreational and sport applications, but self-defense and sport shooting are very different and what's suitable for one may not be appropriate for the other. It could even be a matter of actually being a disadvantage rather than just being of no or limited advantage. And despite being from a competitive shooter who actually has a red dot on his pistol, this video highlights the need for simplicity and on developing appropriate skills. Just apply context (concealed carry, personal defense and the fact that civilian defense encounters almost always take place inside a few yards max ) to what he is saying.
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I[/ame]
Yes, you said that. I said that I found that unprepared people were slow with either. The key thing being that I'm saddling both sighting styles with incompetent operators.
I know, it would seem like having reference points would make it easier, but I dunno, for some reason it doesn't with these guys. And that's on a well-lit square range, to boot.
Long story short: Practice, learn to align naturally, it's not hard.
No offense, but you missed the point.
When we're having these sorts of gear arguments--is X useful for Y--I don't think that it's fair to argue against the thing in question by saying, "But the user can be terrible." I can say that about all sorts of really nice gear.
It's about objectively discussing the merits of an item, not subjectively examining it. We already do that part with our wallets.
Neumann said:
I used a Bushnell TRS-25 quite successfully in Bullseye.
You don't have to spend a lot of money. To be quite frank, for the average user, Aimpoint's offerings are hideously overpriced. In the non-tube arena, you could do quite well with a Burris FF2 or FF3 (I kind of want one for the 610 I don't have yet), or a C-More if you didn't need it to be compact. Both of those offerings are in the $200-$250 range. For tube sights, you can really do no better for the money than the Ultradot-25 or -30 for $180. Or even the genuine (green-lettered, 4 o'clock emitter, not the white-lettered counterfeits) Bushnell for about $80.
Model 15-4ever
Member
I've used these long before they were a fad.
If you are looking for something new-cool or to play shooting games with, have at it!
If you are looking for a serious defensive weapon, ditch the idea. The overwhelming majority of professionals who have a choice , don't use them. They are an acquired taste, and the taste is slow to acquire. Needless bulk and slower than iron sights. Your pistol defensive threats - as opposed to shooting games - are relatively close and need to be hit quickly from concealment. The red dot does nothing for you in those aspects.
Many "well-known trainers" are paid spokespeople for gun and accessory manufacturers (the payment is often just free stuff, publicity and/or vain glory). A large segment of these well-known trainers can't even shoot well. A few spend most of their days at the range, shooting. You probably don't fit into either category.
Spend the coin on ammo and range time and learning how to shoot from a competent source. You will be miles ahead. Gear and toys don't trump sound fundamentals.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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This is quite common among even very experienced shooters such as yourself.
Expert opinion? Well... Pretty much any opinion can be found on the Net to fit with what one wants to find.
Taking an objective read though the thread, I think it's fair to say the common theme is a thumbs down for concealed carry... but the only opinion that counts is your own experience.
I very much enjoy red dots for recreational use. If you haven't already done so, toss one on a pistol and see how you like it. I spend a ton of time with these relatively inexpensive red dots, Burris FF3 and PA MicroDot.
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Most, not all, people who object to a red dot on a CC handgun have never used a red dot on a handgun.
Revolvers are a bit nasty with the red dot because of the high mount, which takes continued practice to properly use when carried concealed. Myself, I don't like it, so I wouldn't carry concealed with a red dot on a revolver.
Now, for a 1911 or glock - you bet!! Get the slide milled for your red dot - the only ones I'm familiar with are the Trijicon RMR and the Leupold DeltaPoint. Both are small, light weight (about 1.5 ounces) and rugged.
With a milled slide, as you draw your 1911 and bring it to bare on target, your eye will naturally look at the location where your rear iron sight should be - instead, the red dot will be in full view - just put the dot on target, press the trigger and you should score a hit - easy and very fast.
I prefer the Deltapoint and just use the tip of that huge (7.5 moa delta) delta as my aiming point - very precise. Now, if you're at all worried about the battery going dead or the lens breaking at a critical moment - just have a BUIS installed (back up iron sight), on a glock that will probably be in front of the red dot (rear of slide) and with the 1911, I have my BUIS mounted behind the deltapoint. I have the buis regulated for 50 yards, which is done by installing the proper height BUIS.
Never a problem catching on clothing etc. Another HUGE bonus is near total darkness shooting, as that red dot is very visible, so if your target is at all silhouetted - you can put rounds on target.
I have found that putting a piece of electrical tape between the bare metal milled slide and the battery (this is for the Deltapoint) that you can extended battery life.
Revolvers are a bit nasty with the red dot because of the high mount, which takes continued practice to properly use when carried concealed. Myself, I don't like it, so I wouldn't carry concealed with a red dot on a revolver.
Now, for a 1911 or glock - you bet!! Get the slide milled for your red dot - the only ones I'm familiar with are the Trijicon RMR and the Leupold DeltaPoint. Both are small, light weight (about 1.5 ounces) and rugged.
With a milled slide, as you draw your 1911 and bring it to bare on target, your eye will naturally look at the location where your rear iron sight should be - instead, the red dot will be in full view - just put the dot on target, press the trigger and you should score a hit - easy and very fast.
I prefer the Deltapoint and just use the tip of that huge (7.5 moa delta) delta as my aiming point - very precise. Now, if you're at all worried about the battery going dead or the lens breaking at a critical moment - just have a BUIS installed (back up iron sight), on a glock that will probably be in front of the red dot (rear of slide) and with the 1911, I have my BUIS mounted behind the deltapoint. I have the buis regulated for 50 yards, which is done by installing the proper height BUIS.
Never a problem catching on clothing etc. Another HUGE bonus is near total darkness shooting, as that red dot is very visible, so if your target is at all silhouetted - you can put rounds on target.
I have found that putting a piece of electrical tape between the bare metal milled slide and the battery (this is for the Deltapoint) that you can extended battery life.
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I would agree. They're viable, but really a last resort. I wouldn't be comfortable at all with no sights or completely unusable sights.
ChattanoogaPhil
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I'm curious about the DeltaPoint. The DeltaPoint relies on a motion sensor to turn off the unit to conserve battery life when not is use and then automatically turns on when motion occurs, right? How does that work for carrying? Isn't the motion of every day tasks keeping the LED on all day anyway?
The DeltaPoint is advertised with a light sensor that will automatically adjust the brightness of the LED to ambient light. When carrying concealed, how quickly does it adjust from the darkness of a concealed position to a bright sunny day? Does it accommodate the needs of a split second SD requirement?
