I'm looking for a reliable red or amber dot sight with magnification for shooting targets 10-100 yds. Seems the Trijicon's are among the best rated. I shot one on a .223 AR-15, it was superb. I've gone the cheap route on two sights, wasted my money on both, and as a result learned it's probably best to bite the bullet, get a good sight and stop messing around with the under $300 junk that's out there. Anyone have any advice?
Red Dot Sights?
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Mickey3Gun
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How About A Vortex SPARC?
Review: Vortex SPARC - YouTube
I've been keeping an eye on this one. Here's a review.
Review: Vortex SPARC - YouTube
I've been keeping an eye on this one. Here's a review.
antifederalist22
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I have the Sparc on my 15-22, as does a friend of mine, and I have one on a Rem870. It works well and the 2MOA dot is perfect for not covering the entire target (like a 4MOA dot). I own several Aimpoint Comps (C3 (x2), ML2, M2, and the Aimpoint 3x magnifier) and I will be buying the Sparc from now on. Lightweight, compact, reliable, holds zero, has a 2x magnifier, easy to operate, comes with mount. For $199, this is a great optic, especially for the 15-22. Vortex is moving in the red dot optic market, and popularity is probably due to increased use and reliability.
If you are tired of the under $300 optic junk then go ahead and get the Trijicon ACOG and have a permanent fixed 4x optic that needs their RMR optic attached to the top for better target acquisition at 30yds and less.
If you are tired of the under $300 optic junk then go ahead and get the Trijicon ACOG and have a permanent fixed 4x optic that needs their RMR optic attached to the top for better target acquisition at 30yds and less.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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For magnified optics with an illuminated dot, Trijicon is probably going to be your best choice. For quick target acquisition and variable magnification for the distances you mentioned I really like the Trijicon 1-4x TR24. The triangle "dot" is very nice. There are a lot more reticle selections with the Trijicon ACOG, but they are fixed magnification.
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Vortex SPARC is a dime store optic that delivers a dim green/gray image like other cheap illuminated optics. When you look through the Trijicon you will get a clear image.
Here's what you get when you buy a dime store SPARC.
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This is what you get with Trijicon.
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And here is my dime store Primary Arms
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If you want quality, you have to pay for it. How those extra dollars translate to your shooting performance with a 15-22 is another matter.
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Vortex SPARC is a dime store optic that delivers a dim green/gray image like other cheap illuminated optics. When you look through the Trijicon you will get a clear image.
Here's what you get when you buy a dime store SPARC.
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This is what you get with Trijicon.
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And here is my dime store Primary Arms
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If you want quality, you have to pay for it. How those extra dollars translate to your shooting performance with a 15-22 is another matter.
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antifederalist22
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Why is there a ziplock bag in the background of the sparc image? You should post the Sparc with a pic taken in daylight for apples to apples comparison. I get why you removed my Sparc review link due to the restrictive rules of this forum (how else should I post a review from someone?), but don't get why you posted this poor image.
ChattanoogaPhil
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I have no idea why there is a bag. It was a pic YOU posted a link to show everyone... so you tell me.
If you don't like the bag... here is a pic of a SPARC inside of a house pointed at a sheetrock wall just like I did with my Primary Arms. Apples/Apples
True, you can mask part of the dim green dime store optic by photographing at a brighter object. But these photos are a much better indicator of light loss. The Trijicon doesn't suffer this. You own Aimpoint optics, you must know what I'm talking about. For that matter... you have a SPARC...so why don't you take pics and post em next to your Aimpoint inside. Pick a white wall inside... Apples/Apples.
Don't misunderstand, I'm a fan of dime store optics on .22s. I have a bunch of em. However, the OP said he was interested in a high dollar quality red dot optic which neither the PA or SPARC is.
SPARC
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Primary Arms
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Redbulladdikt
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i am also looking in this same 4x optics catergory...and i am leaning towards a Bushnell Trophy 1x32 and with a Sight Mark 3x behind it...looking at about $229 for the whole package--giving me 1x Red Dot for CQ and a 3x for range...
if i had the money available i would not even hesitate to buy a Trijicon--they are outstanding and field tested in literally the most Hellish environments imaginable...it will outlast the rifle it is mounted to...if you have the funds it'll be the first and last you will ever have to buy
if i had the money available i would not even hesitate to buy a Trijicon--they are outstanding and field tested in literally the most Hellish environments imaginable...it will outlast the rifle it is mounted to...if you have the funds it'll be the first and last you will ever have to buy
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I have a Primary Arms that I pulled off my AR-15 and installed on the 15-22. Has performed flawlessly. Can add a magnifier if necessary.
Primary Arms Multi-Reticle Red Dot Sight
Primary Arms Multi-Reticle Red Dot Sight
antifederalist22
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It's not worth my time to take a pic of this, upload it to some photo sharing site, and repost it here. I would be more interested in having the Sparc torture test link reposted so people could reference it, but that test is original to that site and should not be copied/pasted here either.
Yes, I do have several Aimpoints. I also own several Leupolds, I own a couple of Nikons, a Redfield (Leupold's budget optic), and I even own a couple of Cabelas optics--all of which are very nice glass. For 10-100yd shooting, a Trijicon is overkill since you need no holdovers when we are only talking about a 7" drop at 100yds and little more than a sight over bore height compensation at 10yds. I don't put optics on weapon systems that exceed the price of the base platform--I find it silly, but that's just me.
what is the most mag you can get with red dots, and do all manufacs offer mag on the optic or is it a separate piece?
also, in looking at inexpensive sights, they are weaver mounts. what is that mount, and can it be used with mp?
finally, what moa is best for 25-75 yds?
also, in looking at inexpensive sights, they are weaver mounts. what is that mount, and can it be used with mp?
finally, what moa is best for 25-75 yds?
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chuck s
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I'm using the $79 Sight Mark aimpoint clone from Rrages on my M&P15-22 and am more than happy with it. Certainly not as clear optics as the genuine $500+ sight but recall you can use the Aimpoints (and their clones) with the front cover closed if you open both eyes.
This has a 4 MOA dot which covers 2" at 50 yards, the maximum effective range for this rifle using bulk .22LR ammunition.
-- Chuck
This has a 4 MOA dot which covers 2" at 50 yards, the maximum effective range for this rifle using bulk .22LR ammunition.
-- Chuck
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ChattanoogaPhil
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The Trijicon TR24 I suggested has no conventional holdovers other than using the dot itself. It was what the OP asked about-- a high-end magnified red dot. Maybe you are thinking of the many ACOG reticles.
I don't use the price of the rifle as a barometer for the optic. How the rifle is used and intended capabilities dictates the choice of optic. My 15-22 cost $400 and has a $100 optic and mount. My Rem 700 cost $500 and sports a $1,000 optic and mount.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Yeah... I can hit a garbage can but not a soda can.
Could someone here explain why I would use a red dot vs. scope. I would like to get some optics, I am shooting mainly 25-100 yds. (maybe 10% a bit longer).
I am middle aged and wear glasses, bifocals.
I would like to have some mag for the 100+yd , maybe even 50 yd + situations.
I also don't want to break the bank. This solution looked like a possibility, red dot plus 3x. Sightmark Aimpoint Clone and 3X Magnifier Combo
However, I don't know plus minus of red dot vs. scope.
Finally, what is reflex sight used for. Sorry for my newbieness.
I am middle aged and wear glasses, bifocals.
I would like to have some mag for the 100+yd , maybe even 50 yd + situations.
I also don't want to break the bank. This solution looked like a possibility, red dot plus 3x. Sightmark Aimpoint Clone and 3X Magnifier Combo
However, I don't know plus minus of red dot vs. scope.
Finally, what is reflex sight used for. Sorry for my newbieness.
ChattanoogaPhil
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The advantages of a red dot are.....
The shooter focuses downfield at the target only, rather than having to focus on iron sights and the target. Most red dot optics are 1x which allows for both eyes open and unrestricted field of view. Typically, there is little parallax with 1x red dots. All of this translates to fast target acquisition which is the advantage of a red dot over a magnified optic. Otherwise, a magnified optic with crosshairs is superior to a red dot for precision shooting or distance.
The shooter focuses downfield at the target only, rather than having to focus on iron sights and the target. Most red dot optics are 1x which allows for both eyes open and unrestricted field of view. Typically, there is little parallax with 1x red dots. All of this translates to fast target acquisition which is the advantage of a red dot over a magnified optic. Otherwise, a magnified optic with crosshairs is superior to a red dot for precision shooting or distance.
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Phil, thanks for the response. So I all I am doing is shooting at targets, or plinking, will the red dot be useable at 50-100yds?
On my pistol I have a terrible time with the iron sights as I need to look thru the lower portion of my glasses to keep the sights in focus, and if I do that, I can't see the target at a distance, and if I sight the target, I can't see the sights in focus. I know the sights are more important than the target, but it is very difficult.
On my pistol I have a terrible time with the iron sights as I need to look thru the lower portion of my glasses to keep the sights in focus, and if I do that, I can't see the target at a distance, and if I sight the target, I can't see the sights in focus. I know the sights are more important than the target, but it is very difficult.
I have similarly middle aged eyes and have never had much luck with a 1x red dot past 50 yards. They are really ideal for close range, off-hand shooting requiring quick target acquisition. So if you are moving quickly from target to target then a red dot is for you. If what you prefer is shooting the center out of a target at 50-100 yards off of a bipod or sandbags, you are going to need some type of magnification, and that is where a magnified scope comes in.
antifederalist22
Member
With a red dot sight, most shooters can engage targets with both eyes open at short ranges and often only use the dominant eye for longer distances despite eye relief.
A red dot will have little to no eye relief (should be zero) with a 1X optic and very little parallax (yep, even Aimpoints have parallax). Red dots are usually available with a 2MOA or 4MOA dot size (2MOA is more popular these days as it only covers 2" at 100yds). Typical Red Dots on the AR platform ride in mounts that have an absolute co-witness or a lower 1/3 of the optic co-witness with standard height iron sights mounted on the rail (flip-up or fixed).
Due to optic mount height over bore (optic center line to rail height), you would hold higher for closer ranged targets.
For instance, if you zero at 50yds with a 5.56mm NATO platform, you will probably need to hold about 1" high on targets 25yds and less with the distance decreasing down to 10yds somewhere just less than 2"--scale accordingly for the .22LR. If you are shooting at a man silhouette less than 10yds away with a 50yd BZO, you would need to aim into the hairline to shoot into the brain box (~2") and likewise to hit the center of the 8" circle in the body.
Standard optic center line to rail height for a 30mm ring optic mount is:
- 1/3 cowitness ~1.69"
- Absolute co-witness ~1.52"
Flip mounts for magnifiers are very nice--they allow the shooter magnify at range, flip over out of the way for close-in work. American Defense Mfg and LaRue Tactical make some of the best Aimpoint, EOTech, and magnifier mounts. A 3x magnifier will certainly help behind a 2MOA or 4MOA dot and for those of us with astigmatism, the magnifier will sharpen the dot and remove the fuzzy edges our irregularly shaped corneas produce for us. The use of a magnifier will decrease your eye relief significantly from a red dot only configuration and you will probably enjoy a cantilever mount on the optic to push it out forward of the magnifier but not too far down the rail from your magnifier, which will be dictated by your cheek weld for eye relief. Adding a magnifier will significantly add weight to your platform is that is a concern, but an Aimpoint 3X magnifier is worth its weight in gold.
I run the Vortex Sparc on my 15-22 with the 2x magnifier. For whatever that is worth...
This is a picture of my custom built AR-15 with Aimpoint optic/mag in LaRue mounts.
A red dot will have little to no eye relief (should be zero) with a 1X optic and very little parallax (yep, even Aimpoints have parallax). Red dots are usually available with a 2MOA or 4MOA dot size (2MOA is more popular these days as it only covers 2" at 100yds). Typical Red Dots on the AR platform ride in mounts that have an absolute co-witness or a lower 1/3 of the optic co-witness with standard height iron sights mounted on the rail (flip-up or fixed).
Due to optic mount height over bore (optic center line to rail height), you would hold higher for closer ranged targets.
For instance, if you zero at 50yds with a 5.56mm NATO platform, you will probably need to hold about 1" high on targets 25yds and less with the distance decreasing down to 10yds somewhere just less than 2"--scale accordingly for the .22LR. If you are shooting at a man silhouette less than 10yds away with a 50yd BZO, you would need to aim into the hairline to shoot into the brain box (~2") and likewise to hit the center of the 8" circle in the body.
Standard optic center line to rail height for a 30mm ring optic mount is:
- 1/3 cowitness ~1.69"
- Absolute co-witness ~1.52"
Flip mounts for magnifiers are very nice--they allow the shooter magnify at range, flip over out of the way for close-in work. American Defense Mfg and LaRue Tactical make some of the best Aimpoint, EOTech, and magnifier mounts. A 3x magnifier will certainly help behind a 2MOA or 4MOA dot and for those of us with astigmatism, the magnifier will sharpen the dot and remove the fuzzy edges our irregularly shaped corneas produce for us. The use of a magnifier will decrease your eye relief significantly from a red dot only configuration and you will probably enjoy a cantilever mount on the optic to push it out forward of the magnifier but not too far down the rail from your magnifier, which will be dictated by your cheek weld for eye relief. Adding a magnifier will significantly add weight to your platform is that is a concern, but an Aimpoint 3X magnifier is worth its weight in gold.
I run the Vortex Sparc on my 15-22 with the 2x magnifier. For whatever that is worth...
This is a picture of my custom built AR-15 with Aimpoint optic/mag in LaRue mounts.
