Reloading .44 Russian - Questions

[Exmilcop]

Forgive me if this gets a little wordy, but though I've been reloading rifle for many years, this is my first foray into the realm of pistol. I have a S&W Frontier DA revolver with a 4" barrel. I've ordered up 100 rnds. of the Fiocchi ammo for it so I'll be plinking for a while before I get to the reload stage. It'll take me a while to pay down the costs of the new items and then start looking at components for reloading. I have one major question. Given that smokeless powder was around when this pistol was made, has anyone loaded smokeless in these particular revolvers? I'm fully aware of the inherent weakness of a break-top vs. solid frame pistol, but I'm curious as to a maximum safe load for this.

 

[Thuer]

I do use just 8 grains of blackpowder behind a .429 sized 200 grain bullet. It seems very little but it works very good on 25 meter with a Smith and Wesson Russian and New model 3. I was really suprised by the accuracy. Do fill the gap in the case between the powder and bullet with Cous Cous. This is a Maroccan granulate. Works very well. It is not burning and ad no extra gass to the detonation. I do use Swiss blackpowder

 

[Exmilcop]

Thank you. I was planning on staying away from black powder. I'm looking at Pyrodex or Hodgdon Trail Boss. That would keep me away from having to use a filler in the cases. If it turns out that a safe smokeless powder load is possible, given the date of the pistol, I may look at that as well.

 

[Kurusu]

Forgive me if this gets a little wordy, but though I've been reloading rifle for many years, this is my first foray into the realm of pistol. I have a S&W Frontier DA revolver with a 4" barrel. I've ordered up 100 rnds. of the Fiocchi ammo for it so I'll be plinking for a while before I get to the reload stage. It'll take me a while to pay down the costs of the new items and then start looking at components for reloading. I have one major question. Given that smokeless powder was around when this pistol was made, has anyone loaded smokeless in these particular revolvers? I'm fully aware of the inherent weakness of a break-top vs. solid frame pistol, but I'm curious as to a maximum safe load for this.

Fiocchi is not my favorite brand. but I sure can reuse the brass when there is nothhing else available.

You may want to avoid it but, for a turn of the Century(XIXth to XXth) revolver i woul go with blackpowder. Thuer advice sounds good, If the piece is in good condition I would go as up as13 grains.

By the way. If you got a modern revolver in .44spl or .44Mag, fire those Fiocchis in one of them.

 

[Exmilcop]

Fiocchi is all that's commercially available to me. I've heard it's good brass and as I get the money together, I'll buy bullets, propellant, dies, and primers and start stuffing my own. Fiocchi gives a MV of 820 and ME of 369 ft.lbs. I'd like to work up a load with Trail boss or Pyrodex that packs more "oomph" but stays within the safe range.

 

[Kurusu]

Fiocchi is all that's commercially available to me. I've heard it's good brass and as I get the money together, I'll buy bullets, propellant, dies, and primers and start stuffing my own. Fiocchi gives a MV of 820 and ME of 369 ft.lbs. I'd like to work up a load with Trail boss or Pyrodex that packs more "oomph" but stays within the safe range.

Better use the "real stuff" than Pyrodex.

Your revolver will thank you.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Trail Boss is what I use in my modern production N0.3 S&W's in 44 Russian. Hodgdon's web sight lists 3 bullets for 44 Russian 185, 200, & 220. If you look at the loading tables you will see that you can load any of them with a single scoop of Trail Boss in the 3.3 to 3.5 grain area. So when you can, pick up some Trail Boss, some Large Pistol primers (I use Winchester), and Lead RNFP (Round Nose Flat Point) bullets. Most modern 44 loading dies will size and crimp from the short 44 Russian to the long 44 Mag, but some older dies won't crimp that short. (I have one old Lyman tong tool that says "44 S&W" that will do Russian and Special but not Mag!) These Trail Boss loads are in the 7000 to 10000 CUP pressure range, full power Black Powder will be around the 8000 CUPs area. Two rules, 1) Never compress Trail Boss & 2) always compress Black Powder! Not following these rules can result in massive pressure spikes that could hurt your gun or even you!

15 years ago I bought 500 of the "Top Brass" brand, The quality was so poor that in 3 shootings all 500 were destroyed (the few that were not, I threw away!) I have been using Starline since then with fine results. I have a few dozen of the Fiocchi, and much prefer the Starline!

If you were to use Black Powder of one of the substitutes, the case needs to be full, and that would be in the 20 grain area by volume, depending on the bullet. The Very first factory loads were 246 grain hollow base and later 200 grain solid base. The 246 grain bullet, loaded in the long obsolete balloon head cases, used 20 grains of FFFg Black Powder. With that long skirted Hollow base bullet, the reputation was very well deserved. With the tiny sights of my Number 3 S&W's My dad (at age 74) could shoot groups of 2" or smaller at 25 yards (My eyes were never as good as his!)

Last advise: Print this thread out and put it with your loading books, otherwise you will never find it when you need it!

Ivan

 

[Exmilcop]

Ivan! You're a gem! That's the kind of information I was seeking. From what I've been able to gather thus far, here's my intent. I can get 240 gr. cast lead round nose, flat base bullets (.430 dia.) up here. I plan to go with Trail Boss and magnum pistol primers. The pistol is to accompany me when I'm bow hunting as some extra insurance against the "what if" scenarios. I'd like your opinion on a max safe load. Though most bear and other wildlife tend to avoid us, a buddy was once stalked by a wolf pack during a late evening walk back to hunt camp. Fortunately it was rifle season and he was armed. A shot in the air dispersed the pack and that was that. It's less the bears and wolves that concern than a rabid critter of some sort and I'd like to have the maximum safe punch with that load. I'd stick with the Fiocchi for plinking and fun. They claim a MV of 820 fps. and ME of 369 ft.lbs. for their factory ammo. I may also order some Starline brass, based on your recommendation. Once again, thank you.

 

[cgt4570]

I use Trail Boss or black powder for My .44 Russians.

BTW, the 'Frontier' was the name for the .44-40 chambering of your revolver. You have a .44DA

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Exmilcop: a century old top break handgun is not an ideal SD revolver, but that's what you have, that's what you use.

All current loading data is based on Cowboy Action Shooting sport and is for mild recoil. The data for your Fiocchi factory ammo was almost identical to the factory ammo when the gun was made. I think that is the maximum safe load! The loading data for HP38/WW231 is 4.8 grains and 842 fps and 11,000 CUP. I think that is pushing the limits of 44 Russian.

Ivan

 

[Exmilcop]

I use Trail Boss or black powder for My .44 Russians.

BTW, the 'Frontier' was the name for the .44-40 chambering of your revolver. You have a .44DA

They just marketed it as ".44 DA"? No model number or name?

 

[gwpercle]

They just marketed it as ".44 DA"? No model number or name?

No model numbers back then ...just names , 44 Double Action was the name .
Is yours an original or modern reproduction .
The reason I ask is the modern reproductions have improved steels , the originals are ...old and it would be best to reload these with black powder as black develops lower pressures .
Gary

 

[Kurusu]

They just marketed it as ".44 DA"? No model number or name?

Yup.

Edit. Even what we now know as a hand ejector second model 1917 only has D.A. 45 on it.

 

[glowe]

I no longer own any 44 Russian caliber Model 3s, but my preference was always to use either Clean Shot and later it was Trail Boss. There is probably not a load that I have not tried throug the years and if I was trying to impress my shooting buddies, I would use BP. Just shooting at the range, I relied on Clean Shot, since it is almost non-corrosive, but today there are other good black powder substitutes as well. I prefer it over Pyrodex, which can be quite corrosive. With BP, corrosion is caused by salts and sulfur residue, while Pyrodex produces an acid based corrosion by-product and the fouling is very hydroscopic. collecting moisture in the barrel and cylinder.

 

[Exmilcop]

No model numbers back then ...just names , 44 Double Action was the name .
Is yours an original or modern reproduction .
Gary

It's an original. Under Canadian law, if it was a modern reproduction, I'd have to register it and it would be subject to all the storage and transport conditions as a modern restricted firearm. For many of us up here, the only option for wilderness carry is a verifiable antique.

 

[Exmilcop]

Gentlemen, you all have been most informative and I thank you. I'm pretty well set on what I'll pick up and use when I get to the reloading stage, but I do have one last question. Have any of you used .44 jacketed bullets in a .44 Russian. Loaded to factory spec, would a jacketed HP produce overpressure compared to a cast lead? My curiosity stems from idea that as a self-protection bush carry sidearm, I may get more lethality from a modern jacketed bullet.

 

[glowe]

There is absolutely no reason to consider jacketed bullets for this age revolver, and yes it is mostly agreed that copper plated bullets offer more resistance than lead, so they would add pressure. Copper is also much harder than lead and when mixed with powder by-products, there is a chance that it could wear the relatively soft steel barrels quicker than lead.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

There is absolutely no reason to consider jacketed bullets for this age revolver, and yes it is mostly agreed that copper plated bullets offer more resistance than lead, so they would add pressure. Copper is also much harder than lead and when mixed with powder by-products, there is a chance that it could wear the relatively soft steel barrels quicker than lead.

I agree completely!

Ivan

 

[Exmilcop]

I may not have made myself clear about the jacketed bullets. I'm aware that metallurgy of the period was not up to current standards and care must be taken when shooting these old firearms. Trust me, if the idiotic Canadian gun laws permitted, I'd have a modern pistol for handy bush carry. I was wondering if anyone HAD pushed jacketed HP bullets through their antique pistol and what was the result. If it were doable, I'd like to have maybe 12 rounds of more lethal bullets as a deterrent and only shoot approved lead rounds for plinking and general use.

 

[Skeet 028]

Personally I would not use regular 44 cal jacketed bullets...BUT if you can...slug the bore..if it is very close to 429 in size...you could try some jacketed 427 bullets for the 44-40. Just to use very occasionally. But make sure of the size some nowdays are still 429s..most are of about 200 gr. What if I may ask constitutes an antique in Canada? Is there a date of manufacture or what? My really nice SAA 38 WCF was made in 1900 and is NOT considered an antique firearm in the US