Reloading during a self defense situation

I may reconsider...

PR24 said:
One should always have extra ammo! Auto mags can break, revolvers have limited capacity, bad guys refuse to die resulting in more shots fired. A perp hopped up on a stimulant; meth, PCP, bath salts etc. are formidable. They feel nothing.....including hot lead. Trust me, I've been in quite a few wrestling matches with them. I've also seen plenty survive what should have killed them.

Under stress you shoot, you don't count. It's impossible to know how many rounds one fired in a dynamic situation. We've seen it with real shootings & Simmunitions training. The instructor asks how many rounds the student fired. They answers are always far less then what they actually shot. Same for real officer involved shootings.

As a citizen, you aren't obligated to 'take action' legally, but ethically a motivated armed citizen would probably take action & not let innocents be slaughtered. The incident in Vegas after two LVMPD officers were murdered resulted in a citizen trying to act. Heroic action it was. Unfortunately, he was out numbered & he died. However, his actions no doubt messed up their OODA loop & slowed them down giving time for LVMPD to respond.

Trolley Square Mall, SLC UT. Active shooter enters mall & wantonly shoots people. Off duty Ogden PD Ofc. Hammond engages perp & contains him. Again throwing off his OODA loop & keeping him occupied until SLCPD arrives & takes him out. Even then, it still took 15 rds of combined 5.56 & 9mm to kill him. Ofc Hammond had NO extra ammo & admitted later he wished he did. He had only the rounds in his gun.

The Trolley Square Mall shooting could have been any Joe/Jane citizen. Hell, it would have been nice if an armed citizen joined the fray. It may have ended sooner.

As a police officer & firearms instructor, it is ALWAYS good to have extra ammo. No, one doesn't have to wear a "TACVEST" full of ammo, but a reload or two is definitely good practice. Speedloaders are a pain to hide, unless you have the right clothing & pouches for them. I carry two with my Mod 60 & a SpeedStrip or two in a pocket. With these enormous tablet phones everyone is toting now days, most people don't wince at an unusual print in a shirt near the waistline. I just wear looser shirts & have no problem hiding a J frame or Glock 23.

With my G23, I have another G22 magazine in a belt pouch. Two more rounds never hurt. Like my dad always says: "it's better to have it & not need it than to need it & not have it". Don't read into stats etc. about citizen shootings. No amount of numerical analysis will cover every incident. You do not want to be the ONE where things go off the rails & you are not prepared.
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I haven't carried a spare magazine, thinking I could get to my main defensive weapons. I may try carrying one just in case.

I work in a remote ski resort area. In addition to the potential BGs looking for a easy score, we have a plethora of wild life, Great Pyrenees sheep dogs, coyotes, etc.

Thanks for the post!
 
I don't really have anything new or earthshattering to add but I don't see that an extra magazine is all that much of a load.

When I leave my house I carry my wallet, a handkerchief, a pocket knife, A multitool, a pocket flashlight, my phone, my gun and 1 or 2 magazines.

Granted my magazines are 11/12 rounders but I don't see that that's all that big a load.

ETA There is something I read that Massad Ayoob said about this topic that I'd like to quote. I don't remember the exact wording but he said there's a mindset that if you carry less gear than I do you're nothing but a sheep and if you carry more you're paranoid and that as gun owners me need to get away from that mindset.

I went back and found the quote

There's a common meme on the Internet: "If you carry more than I do, you're a paranoid gun nut, and if you carry less than I do, you're a pathetic, helpless Sheeple." I don't buy that.
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A couple of observations from paying attention to such things over the years.

Often the first person to end up with an empty gun in a running gun fight, is the loser. This has caused me to question the decision to carry a single stack 1911 vs. a double stack .40 or 9. I like the 1911 and the .45 round and I shoot the 1911 fairly well. Reload drills have become a big part of my range sessions. A lot of times though, an M&P .40 travels with me instead of the .45. And extra mags, regardless what I have with me. A BUG is a great idea. I just haven't implemented it yet.

If you choose to carry, your home is the one place you should carry all the time. Other home defense strategies should also be learned and used.

Regardless your choices, practice and trigger time are the most important thing you can do for yourself.
 
I frequently receive inquiries from people (usually young cops) who want to carry everything off-duty that an on-duty officer would carry. Multiple magazines or speedloaders, lasers, tactical lights, full-size handguns, back-up guns, MP3 players, maybe even a six-pack or two.

I did two tours in Vietnam, seldom carrying more than my rifle and 5 or 6 magazine (20-rounders loaded with 18 rounds each to assure good functioning), a .45 pistol with a couple of extra magazines, maybe a couple of grenades, and (of course) everyone humped ammo for the M60 machinegunner. Plenty of water, dry socks, the really important stuff.

24 years as a cop, usually carrying a single sidearm and two reloads when working uniform, one reload when working in plainclothes. Shotgun in the patrol car, seldom came out.

Retired from law enforcement 19 years ago. Now I carry a single handgun and one extra reload. On a road trip I might carry an old WW2 M1 Carbine behind the seat of the truck.

Other peoples' children may do things differently.

How much is enough? Enough is enough.
 
Mags are easier to carry/conceal than speedloaders generally. Especially if it's a single stack. If you look at the load out troops now carry vs. 40+ yrs. ago, things have definitely changed. Ammo goes quick in combat and you are with all your buddies equally armed. Likewise, for the armed citizen/off duty cop, you are on your own & the cavalry is NEVER close. Like the BSA says; be prepared.
 
I carry at least one reload not because I may or may not shoot the ammo that I have. I carry a spare mag because of the possibility of a magazine related stoppage.

The number one most frequent cause of stoppages for semi-autos is magazine related. Just this forum alone reflects that without getting into my experiences as an instructor.

You carry a gun as a JIC; it seems to me that carrying a spare is just smart.

Wouldn't it be a shame if at your greatest time of need you had a stoppage that was easily correctable if only you had a reload.

FWIW, I carry a gun, spare, flashlight, and knife where ever I go. The light and knife get used more than any other tool ;)

Whatever you chose at least you carry a gun.
 
It is potentially risky to conclude that since statistically only two shots are fired in a self-defense situation (in a non-random sample) that 'you' will only need two. So, be prepared to fire more than that.

To me, carrying a smaller gun with limited capacity means one reload is not going to add much weight in total to carry. At the other end, you could 'probably' get away with no reloads with a 14 to 18-round carry gun, but due to the extra ammo already in the gun that is relatively heavy, and one extra magazine is not going to add much weight in total to carry :). Am I missing something here?

PS Please join the NRA!
 
I carry a 5 shot revolver and 1 speed strip with 5 more rounds. The problem is the reload is in a different pocket and I bet I would never find it in time due to stress, so for practical purposes I do not have a reload. 5 shots and done. I believe that is enough, if I can stay calm enough to be accurate. I hope I never find out!
 
for every gun i carry i have a reload handy. extra mag, speed strip, and a knife. i do carry 2 when ever i can. 1 is none, 2 is one, 3 is enough. guns fail, reloads may be needed, i may need to arm another person... paranoid? no. over prepaired? probably. i may be out shot, but i will NEVER be out gunned... fact is you shoot till there is no longer a threat. may take one round, may take 20. drugs, booze, and just plain stubborn will change the "normal" self defense situation. plus, bad guys are cowards and like dogs, tend to run in packs. 2 legs or 4, a dog is a dog.
 
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I've long treasured the words of an instructor from days long gone by: "We can stand here all day and argue whether one (caliber) is better than another if we get sloppy and put our rounds someplace other than where they ought to go. What you can't argue about is that if you run out of bullets before you run out of bad guys, you're #$%^ dead!"
 
WR Moore said:
I've long treasured the words of an instructor from days long gone by: "We can stand here all day and argue whether one (caliber) is better than another if we get sloppy and put our rounds someplace other than where they ought to go. What you can't argue about is that if you run out of bullets before you run out of bad guys, you're #$%^ dead!"
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And I challenge you to find an example of a CCW holder in a a critical incident who ran out of bullets before he ran out of bad guys. Like the "blood in the streets" predictions of CCW opponents, it just doesn't happen . . .
 
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Every one of us has different work/life situations, hence differing needs. I am pretty well armed at work and at home, but less so away from home. We never know when or what will happen, but I am inclined to believe that the vast majority of citizen-involved shootings consume very little ammo.

I am wondering, however, for a pride of lion would I be better off with a 500 with 5 rounds, or a J-frame 357 and a speed-strip??
 
Give me one good reason not to have at least one reload for what ever you are carrying. Myself I even carry two fire extinguishers in my cars and trucks, and yes I have needed them both on one occasion. I always carry at least one reload and on certain times I do carry a second gun. Most of the time I carry strong side belt holster and if I am going to be driving a lot or spending a lot of time in a vehicle I add a M&P snub Model 12 in an upside down shoulder holster for quicker, easier access. Again ,in these type of discussions, keep in mind, my opinion and a couple of bucks will get you coffee in most places. All my best, Joe.
 
Muss Muggins said:
And I challenge you to find an example of a CCW holder in a a critical incident who ran out of bullets before he ran out of bad guys. Like the "blood in the streets" predictions of CCW opponents, it just doesn't happen . . .
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This is true, but I fail to see the reason for not having an extra mag.

No one EVER finished a fight and wished they had less ammo. :cool:

OK, true though it may be, that's just a cute quote. So, why carry an extra mag? You see, more ammo is not the reason. I carry the mag in case of a malfunction. If that first round causes a malfunction, I at least want the chance to get back in the fight (assuming I can't get away).
 
Personally, I would never leave the house without an M-249 SAW and at least six belts of ball/AP/tracer. I always keep at least twenty spare belts in the bed of my truck. Seriously, I carry one gun, one spare mag. If that's not enough, sucks to be me.
 
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