reloads and the law

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The Bias case isn't a good example to use for this as no one on this forum was in the court to hear the evidence that was presented. And since it happened so long ago there is precious little an internet search will find for you, which I had tried to do for years. The only thing I could find came up about a year ago when a newspaper article appeared about Mr. Bias being charged with a weapons violation while being an ex-convict.

According to this article, as best as I can recall, Mr. Bias' first trial ended in a hung jury, he was tried again and was convicted, but it was overturned on appeal. The first trials were charging him with intentionally killing his wife and failed to get a conviction that would stick. He was then charged with killing his wife by accident and that is the case that sent him to prison. The artilce also mentioned something about him making a statement to the first responders that he didn't mean to kill her, which was what got him the guilty conviction. Apparently, from reading the article, the part that got the first conviction overturned was a lack of the prosecution to prove intent on 'why he shot her' and wasn't about 'did he shoot her'. But without un-biased first hand information from the trial, we'll never know for sure.

As others have pointed out, as far as I know there have been no real cases where an innocent person was tried, convicted, or even harassed because they used reloaded ammunition. I do feel that it may actually work against you if do have ammunition that has exemplar evidence or expert technicians to testify against you, but that is just my personal opinion and I'm not forcing it on anyone. I am not an attorney, but I would think that if there was a shadow of a doubt about what you had in the firearm and the opposing counsel didn't listen, that would be grounds for a mis-trial because they can't tamper with evidence either. That's what expert firearms witnesses are supposed to be for, unless it just an attempt to confuse the jury.

So I agree, this is a useless debate that has no basis in fact and only serves to create fear and phobias in the public sector. But since I have nothing better to do, let's see if we can get to page 8.

By the way, I forgot to mention this earlier but if I was an attorney and someone told me that they carried the same ammunition that the local police did, I'd have their butts for breakfast and say something like, "well, if you really want to carry a gun and ammunition like a police officer, why don't you go get a job as one". It's all about making you look like an idiot in the juries minds, and that's what they go to college for.
 
Well, I guess I will wait until it is closer. I wanna be the one to send it over the edge! Anything to help a friend out! :D
 
The Bias case isn't a good example to use for this as no one on this forum was in the court to hear the evidence that was presented. And since it happened so long ago there is precious little an internet search will find for you, which I had tried to do for years. The only thing I could find came up about a year ago when a newspaper article appeared about Mr. Bias being charged with a weapons violation while being an ex-convict.

According to this article, as best as I can recall, Mr. Bias' first trial ended in a hung jury, he was tried again and was convicted, but it was overturned on appeal. The first trials were charging him with intentionally killing his wife and failed to get a conviction that would stick. He was then charged with killing his wife by accident and that is the case that sent him to prison. The artilce also mentioned something about him making a statement to the first responders that he didn't mean to kill her, which was what got him the guilty conviction. Apparently, from reading the article, the part that got the first conviction overturned was a lack of the prosecution to prove intent on 'why he shot her' and wasn't about 'did he shoot her'. But without un-biased first hand information from the trial, we'll never know for sure.

As others have pointed out, as far as I know there have been no real cases where an innocent person was tried, convicted, or even harassed because they used reloaded ammunition. I do feel that it may actually work against you if do have ammunition that has exemplar evidence or expert technicians to testify against you, but that is just my personal opinion and I'm not forcing it on anyone. I am not an attorney, but I would think that if there was a shadow of a doubt about what you had in the firearm and the opposing counsel didn't listen, that would be grounds for a mis-trial because they can't tamper with evidence either. That's what expert firearms witnesses are supposed to be for, unless it just an attempt to confuse the jury.

So I agree, this is a useless debate that has no basis in fact and only serves to create fear and phobias in the public sector. But since I have nothing better to do, let's see if we can get to page 8.

By the way, I forgot to mention this earlier but if I was an attorney and someone told me that they carried the same ammunition that the local police did, I'd have their butts for breakfast and say something like, "well, if you really want to carry a gun and ammunition like a police officer, why don't you go get a job as one". It's all about making you look like an idiot in the juries minds, and that's what they go to college for.
I don`t need any help from an attorney to look like an idiot, I can do that perfectly well all by myself!!! There now we are at 8 pages.
 
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Does this make it 8??

deadhorselogo.jpg
 
No, I know almost nothing and I like to keep it that way. Keeps me from thinking of myself as an "EXPERT" ;)


What I do know is that it means NOTHING about what the lawyers, good or bad, think or thought, it means nothing what you or other think or thought, it was what the people on the jury thought and NOW that is all that matters.

I kinda sensed the first part of that, Skip, but thanks for the confirmation. As to the second part, it does indeed come down to what the jury thinks...and the use of his reloaded ammo kept critical exculpatory evidence from reaching that jury, resulting in Bias' conviction.

Jelly, whether Internet debaters choose to throw Bias under the bus or not (and personally, based on the totality of the evidence, I don't think he was guilty), the fact remains that the same rules of evidence apply whether the theory of the case is self-defense or anything else.

I see the Bias case as a canary in the mine shaft that warned us this could happen. Much more telling is the fact that in five years of Internet debate, NO ONE has been able to cite a case where a handloader's records or word for what was in the load WAS accepted as evidence.

Given that fact, I agree it's a dead horse. I'm just glad I wasn't the one who reanimated it here.
 
33 years ago, the little woman and I!

Man we were young!



youngunsgettingmarried.jpg

A very handsome couple...

FWIW- After getting sucked into this same argument about three different times, now I just follow along and smile. I know what's in my gun will go bang and go where I've aimed it. At the end of the day that is all that matters.
And I'm pretty sure we're successfully killing this thread before it gets to my predicted 12 pages. I do not mind being wrong in my prediction.
 
I kinda sensed the first part of that, Skip, but thanks for the confirmation. As to the second part, it does indeed come down to what the jury thinks...and the use of his reloaded ammo kept critical exculpatory evidence from reaching that jury, resulting in Bias' conviction.

Well, touche'. ;)

Of course, I have never testified as an "Expert Witness" either. Have you?

My definition of an "expert" may differ from Webster though. Let me break it down though:

It is a compound word with a hidden meaning. EX is something "former" and if you say it right, "spert" is a drip under pressure! ;)

So, no, I am not a former drip under pressure. Whether it be from my sponsors (that may just be ammo makers) or whoever!

FWIW
 
Be careful of playing the odds . . .

I used to keep our house gun loaded with light handloads. Now I carry only factory loads because I don't want to play against the odds. Maybe there is a 98 or even 99 % chance that my handloads would pose no legal problem for me. But what about that small shadow of doubt?

1. True, most shooting cases don't even go to trial at all. The sissy DA pleads them down.
2. Also, odds are that nobody will know or even care if I'm using handloaded ammo.
3. Thirdly, if my ammo was called into question, I'm pretty sure I can defend my choice. (But at what cost?)

Even so, is it worth the risk? The problem with playing the odds is that one or two percent chance that I might end up having to pay a lawyer money I can't afford to clear my good name. Once you've been mugged and shot at ( as I have been ), you start to see that the odds of getting robbed or having to use a gun in self-defense are greater than you might otherwise think.

I carry a gun everywhere, even to church, NOT because of some way-out, obscure possibility that I might need it, but because I have fairly reasonable expectations that it could happen again. Despite the hype and lies to the contrary, violent crime in Indianapolis is sky-rocketing. If it happens to me again, hopefully I'll be ready. I'll be loaded with popular brands and styles of defense ammo. That's just me.

(However, I do keep a substantial stash of handloaded defense ammo in store, in the event of a civil defense emergency. The "gloves are off" when it comes to a terrorist attack.)
 
Mas, as a member of Mr. Bias' defense team, I wouldn't even ask you if he were guilty or not, the same goes for his attorneys or even the prosecution. Unfortunately, the same goes for opinions or information about the case because the result will be the same as the trial, there are two sides to every story.

No, I can not tell you a case where a court accepted a handloaders records as to what was in a reload used in self defense, because I've never heard of a case where it was really a question. On the other hand, I've never heard of a case where handloads did really cause a problem, based on unbiased information about a case. The fact that the court did not allow your testimony about Mr. Bias' handloads only tells me that it had no bearing on the real evidence in the case, and his attorney claiming that it was what lost the case might have been because it was the only hope he had of introducing a 'reasonable doubt' to the jury.

I can certainly understand a judge or attorney not understanding about "reloading", but if it actually has bearing on the case it can be just as important as who pulled the trigger and would certainly be cause for a new "fair" trial.

I can easily make my ammunition "factory ammo" in every legal sense of the word, but since I'm not going to sell it I don't have to. It is perfectly legal and legitimate under the law as to how it's manufactured and used and the local courts have no real jurisdiction under the federal laws under which it falls to say otherwise, especially if they don't understand it. As I've said earlier, not all factory ammo is the same and not all of it would be treated the same under this discussion. Some of it would be exactly the same as my reloads.
 
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The Bias case isn't a good example to use for this as no one on this forum was in the court to hear the evidence that was presented. And since it happened so long ago there is precious little an internet search will find for you, which I had tried to do for years. The only thing I could find came up about a year ago when a newspaper article appeared about Mr. Bias being charged with a weapons violation while being an ex-convict.

According to this article, as best as I can recall, Mr. Bias' first trial ended in a hung jury, he was tried again and was convicted, but it was overturned on appeal. The first trials were charging him with intentionally killing his wife and failed to get a conviction that would stick. He was then charged with killing his wife by accident and that is the case that sent him to prison. The article also mentioned something about him making a statement to the first responders that he didn't mean to kill her, which was what got him the guilty conviction. Apparently, from reading the article, the part that got the first conviction overturned was a lack of the prosecution to prove intent on 'why he shot her' and wasn't about 'did he shoot her'. But without un-biased first hand information from the trial, we'll never know for sure.

As others have pointed out, as far as I know there have been no real cases where an innocent person was tried, convicted, or even harassed because they used reloaded ammunition. I do feel that it may actually work against you if do have ammunition that has exemplar evidence or expert technicians to testify against you, but that is just my personal opinion and I'm not forcing it on anyone. I am not an attorney, but I would think that if there was a shadow of a doubt about what you had in the firearm and the opposing counsel didn't listen, that would be grounds for a mis-trial because they can't tamper with evidence either. That's what expert firearms witnesses are supposed to be for, unless it just an attempt to confuse the jury.

So I agree, this is a useless debate that has no basis in fact and only serves to create fear and phobias in the public sector. But since I have nothing better to do, let's see if we can get to page 8.

By the way, I forgot to mention this earlier but if I was an attorney and someone told me that they carried the same ammunition that the local police did, I'd have their butts for breakfast and say something like, "well, if you really want to carry a gun and ammunition like a police officer, why don't you go get a job as one". It's all about making you look like an idiot in the juries minds, and that's what they go to college for.

Ok, so there's at least two good lessons to be learned from the Bias case:

- Stick with factory ammo

- Keep your mouth shut until you speak to your attorney

Anyone know anyone around here who has been saying this for Months, yeArs, and decades???
 
Ok, so there's at least two good lessons to be learned from the Bias case:

- Stick with factory ammo

- Keep your mouth shut until you speak to your attorney

Anyone know anyone around here who has been saying this for Months, yeArs, and decades???

My mom never said that.
 
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