Relying on a vintage firearm for SD/EDC

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Saw this topic on another board, someone asked "define vintage", he cited the Browning HP he has owned for 55 years. A pair of Colt 1851 Navies ?-shades of Wild Bill Hickok. Another member showed a matching P-38 badly damaged by poor quality Russian ammo. So how old is too old ?

 

[alwslate]

No such thing as too old as long as it functions and uses cartridges rather than BP and caps. I have sometimes carried a 1935 Beretta dated 1944 but some on here have carried guns a lot older than that.

 

[sigp220.45]

This one is 110 and I carry it all the time.

 

[.455_Hunter]

My cutoff for EDC or home defensive use is roughly 1900.

 

[BB57]

Well…age isn’t a problem until it suddenly is.

For example the Walther PP and PPK pistols have been kicking around since 1929 and 1931 respectively. And while being very well made of excellent quality steel very nicely heat treated, the hammer and de-cocking levers have been known to fail.

While made of tough steel, nicely face hardened for wear resistance, over time the crystalline structure that provides that hard outer surface starts to migrate deeper into the steel with repeated impacts. That process continues until the entire part becomes hard - and brittle.

The owners of those old PP and PPK pistols discover that one day when they de-cock the pistol and hear the hammer or de-cocking lever break. It doesn’t happen to all of them, just to those that have been de-cocked enough to cause embrittlement issues over the last 90 years.

Since I don’t usually know who owned them and how they used them, I don’t de-cock old PP and PPKs and instead lower the hammer manually.

That’s the lead in to the big question of how much can you trust an old firearm? It really depends on how much it has been used and how.

For example the US Army had issues with breakage of fire control parts in low round count M9s. They hadn’t been shot excessively, but the multiple impacts of the hammer and de-cocking lever each time it was function checked led to embrittlement of the parts involved in just a couple decades.

In short, I’d happily and confidently use an old Hi Power that had spent most of its life as a safe queen, and/or had new fire control parts installed, either FN or aftermarket Cylinder and Slide parts.

I carried an FN made SFS Hi Power for about a decade and during that time I acquired an FEG 1st gen P9. I converted it to the same SFS system using FN parts and carried it as well, as the parts prone to breakage were now brand new.

But I would not carry a military surplus M9 because I don’t know where it’s been. With new fire control parts. Maybe. They had slide issues as well.

I might carry an old police trade in Beretta 92 as those guns tend to have extensive carry wear but are not shot much. But it would come down to condition.

Some of it also depends on the gun and it’s manufacture history.

Like a really old PP, I also probably would not carry a 1911 made prior to about 1924 when they started hardening the slides due to wear and cracking issues on the older 1911s.

Similarly, the Beretta 3032 Tomcat has a history of cracking in the older models that didn’t have the heavier slides. The newer heavier slides are both wider and have higher frame rails that make them easy to spot. So would I carry an older light slide Tomcat? Probably not, even though they are not that old.

 

[BB57]

No such thing as too old as long as it functions and uses cartridges rather than BP and caps. I have sometimes carried a 1935 Beretta dated 1944 but some on here have carried guns a lot older than that.

There are jurisdictions where handgun ownership is very problematic. In most of those a cap and ball revolver may still be a “dangerous weapon” but it sidesteps the handgun restrictions as it isn’t legally defined as a firearm.

Now…the dark side of that is also that there are convicted felons who are prohibited individuals who cannot own a firearm but can still evade that restriction with a cap and ball revolver.

The Dukes of Hazard would have been more accurate in that regard if Bo and Luke had carried Ruger Old Army revolvers instead of compound bows, and Ruger could have made some money on product placement and sales.

 

[Grimjaws]

Just the opposite

I pocket carry a j frame. I’ve been using a 36 no dash last few years and late last Fall got a great deal on a 60 no dash. I kept one gun for home defense and carried the other. My wife has some health issues but she was able to pull the trigger on the 36 or cock the hammer after a few dry fires once her hand cramped up. I hang my head to admit she only handled it with dry fire until recently.

We vacation a few times a year away from the woods and visit a beach. I did another post about looking for a vacation gun and something to keep in the pocket for walks along the shore. The steel j frame is too heavy for beachwear and whacks against my leg when we did the morning walks. Plus I wanted something smaller for when I’m home and for pocket carry around the homestead. The Ruger LCP II .22 fit the bill perfectly. Light, easy to carry, and a hoot to blast away with CCI Stingers.

I still carried the j frame into town and as my daily. For grins I sometimes carried both.

My FFL enabler recently got in a 637-2 NIB from an estate that he gave me a great deal on. Yeah it has the stupid lock and MIM parts but it has a lifetime warranty. I was looking for a project gun so thought - why not make a true belly gun. Since it had MIM parts I could swap in a 642-2 MIM hammer I got off eBay, put on some older hogue boot grips and work on the action.

My wife had joined me a time or two at the range. I had her try the 36 and even with big Pachmayr grips the recoil was too harsh. The little Ruger .22 was too hard to hold on to once her hand cramped. So I got out a few more pistols from the safe. After some experimentation she decided on a 19 - alas not S&W but a Glock Gen 3!

So my home defense gun is now the Glock 19. I plan to daily EDC the new 637 after I confirm reliability once I’m done with my customizing. And I will carry the LCP .22 when the mood or situation warrants. Three guns all modern and all with parts availability and two with lifetime warranties. More importantly all three are still in production so easily replaced unlike my no dash 36 or 60.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I'll tote 'em, even some 120 years old. Just because I want to.

I've had my truly oldie handguns on hand for years. If it is Colt or Smith & Wesson then I have toted them seriously without concern. Am willing to carry an early post war FN High Power and a couple of Webleys too for that matter.

Dithering about respected designs from good quality manufacturers is for someone else to do on firearms forums.

 

[Rustyt1953]

"Vintage" is a man made construct. "Old" is what you deem it to be.

In some circles I am vintage.

 

[sigp220.45]

Upon further consideration, this is the oldest. 1888.

I carried it a few times just to say I did. It is eminently capable - six big fat .44 Russians should sort out any problem I’m likely to run into. Its just too big.

 

[BB57]

…/

/… Three guns all modern and all with parts availability and two with lifetime warranties. More importantly all three are still in production so easily replaced unlike my no dash 36 or 60.

There’s merit to that.

On the other hand, back when I was teleworking 80% of the time and renting a room for my two days every two weeks in the northern VA area, Star BMs were available in holster worn but low round count and excellent mechanical condition for $200.

I bought three. One for here, one for there, and a spare to address any (unlikely) future parts breakage. It let me carry the same without having to go through the PITA of checking a firearm on a commercial flight or train trip.

They are great little all steel 1911’esque pistols right sized for 9mm and with some other improvements in terms of bobbed grip profile, extractor, etc. Accurate, reliable, and familiar to any 1911 shooter at a small fraction of the cost.

For what it’s worth, in 37 years of concealed carry, and years of bullseye and practical pistol shooting, I’ve never had a handgun actually break.

I had a gunsmith screw up a trigger job once that required new parts to fix. I’ve launched an ejector spring or two into the dark recesses of the garage over the decades. I have worn out a lot of recoil springs that I keep in stock thanks to Wolff Gun Springs. I’ve even worn out an alloy frame 1911, but I’ve never broken a pistol or revolver.

The spare parts availability issue is probably the least important consideration. If a part breaks at all, you have to question overall reliability of your chosen firearm (or how you are abusing the gun), and best case it’s still out of service until you source a new part.

 

[old tanker]

I carried an old US Property marked Colt 1911 purchased from the DCM in 1961 just about everywhere for most of fifty years. I did not retire it because I had lost faith in it, but rather the sentimental value was too high to risk losing it in an evidence locker. So does replacing a hundred and nine year old Colt with a fifty year old Combat Commander still qualify as vintage?

 

[BAM-BAM]

WWII and pre-WWII guns are probably worth more as collectables. So the cutoff for me would be 1946; as they say YMMV.

Maybe make an exception for a "sock drawer" Colt 1903 or 08 like Sig220.45's above...

Carried a 1980s PPK for years as my suit gun ......most of my EDC guns date from the late 80 to mid-90s.

 

[lrrifleman]

BLACKHAWKNJ, nice question. I think the better approach would be vintage design. I had purchased a Mauser HSc a few years back with the intention of being a CCW handgun, then the reality of current events sunk in. I still like the HSc, but I feel that the heel magazine release could get a user killed. Because of that revelation, I tend to avoid any handgun that might be called upon for self-defense duty that has a heel magazine release!

 

[TXBryan]

Agree with all who stated it's more about condition and reliability than age.

I have lots of options for EDC including a SIG 365XL which I like and find pretty convenient. More often than not I carry a Chief's Special (barely a pre-Model 36) J-frame shipped early in 1957. It's a birth year S&W for me, all original, and in superb condition.

Very accurate, easy to shoot, and it's about the only EDC I own that I can actually forget I'm carrying. It goes on a belt outside the waistband, high, and shirt-tails easily cover it. That's the reason it gets worn so often.

The fact that it's 65 years old is irrelevant for practical purposes. It isn't everyone's idea of an EDC but the one I'll wear beats the ones I won't or don't.

 

[Grayfox]

My primary EDC for most of the last 30 years has been a Colt Commander built in 1959. So there's that.

 

[racoonbeast]

Disqualifying a gun as a carry gun due to its age is just plain stupid. Some folks carry this "Junior G Man", "Tacticool" **** just a little bit too far. We are talking about guns, not mayonnaise. They don't spoil.

Some of the best guns mankind ever has, or ever will see was made seventy to a hundred years ago. If it is in good shape and reliable there is no reason to disqualify it.

You don't need fifteen or even twenty shots. You need one placed in the right place. Some folks need to quit standing at the three yard line while they spray and pray with their twenty round magazines. They need to step out to the twenty-five yard line and teach themselves to actually shoot, one round at a time. I know that "Call of Duty" and other such video games would have you believing that if you lay down a barrage of fire with the latest plastic wonder you are one Hell of an "operator". But you might want to read about the philosophy of people like Wyatt Earp, Frank Hamer, Wild Bill Hickok, or more recently Bill Jordan. All people who spent very little time fantasizing about gun fights because they were actually in them and won. They will tell you, to a man, that the way to survive a gun fight is to put one shot exactly where it needs to go, and have the sack to stand there, maybe even take a bullet, while you line up your shot, and put the guy in front of you down. If you can't do both of these, you probably ought to stay out of gun fights. You are not going to get to hit the "replay" button and do it again. And, you don't need a twenty shot magazine to do this. These guys would tell you that by the time you get to round three you are probably already dead.

Sorry. Had to get it off my chest. If you disagree, that's fine. I am not responsible for your safety.

 

[Heinz]

I used to carry my 1910 Browning with a 4 digit serial number from the first years production. Now I have that neat little 3913NL or the CS9

 

[majick47]

BLACKHAWKNJ, nice question. I think the better approach would be vintage design. I had purchased a Mauser HSc a few years back with the intention of being a CCW handgun, then the reality of current events sunk in. I still like the HSc, but I feel that the heel magazine release could get a user killed. Because of that revelation, I tend to avoid any handgun that might be called upon for self-defense duty that has a heel magazine release!

Heal mag release was very common with European police/military pistols who believed it was better than frame mounted for their purposes and less likely to drop the mag under stress or by accident. Swiss Border Customs Police P-220 had a shield on the body side of the mag heal release to protect it from accidently releasing the mag. Common for European police/military to carry just one spare mag. Like a lot of things a trade off of security or slightly faster mag change.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I recall a message string in the Other Brands forum where board members
mentioned problems with their HsCs, small parts that were tricky to remove and somewhat prone to failure, and I would avoid any German or German occupied countries manufacture after say 1942. On that other board some spoke well of the Tokarev TT-30 and 33, its one drawback its rather poor grip angle.
As Bill Jordan quoted an unnamed shooting sage "Speed's fine but accuracy's final." If you can channel Charlie Askins in a SD situation you'll do OK.
"Losing it as 'evidence'" ? Get a High Point.