Relying on a vintage firearm for SD/EDC

[Yaworski]

I carried a wartime Walther PP for years and shot it a bunch at the range. Never had a problem.

I have an ancient Ballester Molina that I've used to shoot many bowling pins and steel plates and never had a malfunction. The same goes for my Sisteme Colt Modelo 1927.

 

[Muley Gil]

I've heard a commercial 1917 makes a decent house gun. Just saying.

 

[BB57]

@BB57

You pay your money and take your chances. You seek comfort in statistics to justify your choices. I take a look at the same statistics and use the outliers as justification for carrying a higher capacity handgun loaded with current state of development ammunition instead of a 111 year old gun design and ammunition.

Three comments:

1) If I did it your way - planning for those far right hand tail very low probability contingencies, I wouldn't bother with a handgun, I'd carry a semi auto carbine with 30 round magazine in the carbine and at least two more in a pouch.

In short, you are also making compromises, they just are not based on hard data and statistical analysis.

2) Just because I'm comfortable carrying something like a well curated Walther PP in 32 ACP in armed-citizen-use-good-judgement-to-stay-out-of-bad-places situations doesn't mean I am limited to that.

I often carry a CZ-75 PCR with modern hollow points.

3) I also carry a modern iteration of a 111 year old design with modern hollow points. I'm pretty confident there not many situations I could not extricate myself from with a 1911 and a decent hollow point.

The important thing is that someone actually carry a gun and a mouse gun you have on you is far more effective than a hand cannon you left home. Similarly an "old" gun you have and or shoot well is far more effective than a "new" gun that you shoot poorly or haven't bought yet.

 

[Yaworski]

1) If I did it your way - planning for those far right hand tail very low probability contingencies,

Another of those far right hand probabilities is a new gun breaking. However, I've had that happen. My "Glock Perfection" 17 broke in the first 50 rounds and ceased functioning. If I based all gun usage on that experience, I'd never get a new gun.

 

[tops]

I wouldn't do anything that drastic but I would change brands. Larry

 

[mattallamerican]

everything brakes that's why i carry two

 

[Model46]

I carry a Chiefs Special from 1952 or a S&W 49 from the 80's.

 

[BSA1]

Three comments:

1) If I did it your way - planning for those far right hand tail very low probability contingencies, I wouldn't bother with a handgun, I'd carry a semi auto carbine with 30 round magazine in the carbine and at least two more in a pouch.

Extreme red herring comment.

Actually the WW2 design M1 Carbine is dated and not particularly convenient to use. More of a fun range toy.

However the AR-15 can be built as a handgun or carbine in a variety of cartridges such as 9mm, 45, .223, 5.56, 300 Blackout in a variety of barrel lengths. If someone wants to carry one in a Open Carry State I say go for it.

I do take my level of self-defense higher than most Forum members. My edc for the last five years is a full size, high-capacity, 5"'barrel 9mm HANDGUN.

2) Just because I'm comfortable carrying something like a well curated Walther PP in 32 ACP in armed-citizen-use-good-judgement-to-stay-out-of-bad-places situations doesn't mean I am limited to that.

I often carry a CZ-75 PCR with modern hollow points.

Does the CZ-75 qualify for "vintage"? Hummm. The design is what 50 years old?

3) I also carry a modern iteration of a 111 year old design with modern hollow points. I'm pretty confident there not many situations I could not extricate myself from with a 1911 and a decent hollow point.

I know better than to argue with a 1911 Fanboy. I choose to carry a full size 9mm with twice the on-board ammunition capacity as the 1911 and another 15 round spare magazine.

The important thing is that someone actually carry ENOUGH gun and a mouse gun you have on you is far more effective than a hand cannon you left home.

Fixed it for you.

And with modern guns there is little reason to carry a mouse gun. The discussion is about vintage or old handguns although the O.P. has never set a cut-off date.

 

[AJ]

Extreme red herring comment.

Actually the WW2 design M1 Carbine is dated and not particularly convenient to use. More of a fun range toy.

However the AR-15 can be built as a handgun or carbine in a variety of cartridges such as 9mm, 45, .223, 5.56, 300 Blackout in a variety of barrel lengths. If someone wants to carry one in a Open Carry State I say go for it.

I do take my level of self-defense higher than most Forum members. My edc for the last five years is a full size, high-capacity, 5"'barrel 9mm HANDGUN.



Does the CZ-75 qualify for "vintage"? Hummm. The design is what 50 years old?



I know better than to argue with a 1911 Fanboy. I choose to carry a full size 9mm with twice the on-board ammunition capacity as the 1911 and another 15 round spare magazine.



Fixed it for you.

And with modern guns there is little reason to carry a mouse gun. The discussion is about vintage or old handguns although the O.P. has never set a cut-off date.

What about an M1A1 or an Enforcer?

 

[31FordA]

I have carried a 1948 M&P and a 1950 Colt Detective Special at various times over the years, both on and off duty. They had both been other peoples service revolvers before I got them. I had no qualms about carrying them. These days the oldest guns I carry at times are a 1961 Gov't Model and a 1972 Model 12.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Rather than a cutoff date, and there have been plenty of recent firearms-the AMT Backup, the Colt 2000, the Beretta M9 that have poor reputations-let's say from a long vanished manufacturer, where parts are non-existent, or with design features-say heel clip magazines, a poor grip angle-the Tokarev, e.g. or other features-poorly positioned and hard to release and engage safeties-the Mauser 1914 and CZ-27-that make them 3rd or 4th choices at best.

 

[BB57]

Extreme red herring comment.

Actually the WW2 design M1 Carbine is dated and not particularly convenient to use. More of a fun range toy.

However the AR-15 can be built as a handgun or carbine in a variety of cartridges such as 9mm, 45, .223, 5.56, 300 Blackout in a variety of barrel lengths. If someone wants to carry one in a Open Carry State I say go for it.

I do take my level of self-defense higher than most Forum members. My edc for the last five years is a full size, high-capacity, 5"'barrel 9mm HANDGUN.

Does the CZ-75 qualify for "vintage"? Hummm. The design is what 50 years old?.

I didn't mention the M1 Carbine. I was thinking more along the lines of a Mini-14 or AR-15. The Mini 14 is more modern as it wasn't introduced until 1973, 9 years after the AR-15.

You did realize the AR-15 first hit the market in 1964 - and that was 59 years ago? Right?

——

The CZ-75 was designed in 1975. Who'd have thunk they'd have been so unoriginal in naming the design. Kinda like the 1911.

This is a Pre-B dating to 1980. DA/SA trigger, double stack 15 round magazine, one of the first wondernines.

I'm more inclined to carry this CZ-75 PCR. Bit shorter slide, alloy frame and a decocking lever.

But I'm also inclined to carry a .32 ACP or .380 ACP as both backup and to hand off to my wife if necessary.

 

[lrrifleman]

I guess I need to qualify my comments concerning the HSc.

Re: heel magazine release - I am disabled and have a bum weak arm, plus some neuropathy in my hand, magazine changes with a heel release is something I would like to avoid.

Re: manufacture - my HSc was a post-war Interarms model in 380. For replacement parts, it is an orphan.

Re: parts - I bought mine used, and it worked OK for the first magazine. On the second magazine, it blew apart and has since been rebuilt. Apparently, a previous owner attempted to detail strip the slide without knowing how to do it. They put a nice "S" bend in the firing pin which didn't retract, and slam-fired when I inserted a fresh magazine. Pins on the extractor spring vanished at the outdoor range. Used replacement parts were near impossible to find. I was fortunate enough to find a complete slide for sale on eBay that I was able to cannibalize.

Re: studies of police shootings. I have a high degree of respect for these studies. Unfortunately, I believe that the findings can be negated with a close look at current events:
a) in recent years, persons willing to run astray of the law have started to roam in packs. Look at the Rittenhouse encounter, many of his attackers didn't read the studies, so they didn't know to retreat instead of continuing to advance and attack.
b) while certain elements are swarming to attack LEO'S, they may see a disabled individual as being an easy target. I really wouldn't want to find myself having to reload a heel release magazine in a high stress encounter with a bum arm.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

If you use your firearm in a self defense shooting, you are going to lose control of it for an indefinite period of time. Firearms are routinely abused and damaged while in police custody. Sometimes they are lost or stolen. Just something to keep in mind if you carry a collectible or heirloom for self defense.

 

[steelslaver]

If you use your firearm in a self defense shooting, you are going to lose control of it for an indefinite period of time. Firearms are routinely abused and damaged while in police custody. Sometimes they are lost or stolen. Just something to keep in mind if you carry a collectible or heirloom for self defense.

I see this statement all the time. If I am involved in a self defense shooting the gun is the least of my worries. Besides I am probably more apt to damage my carry gun by dropping it, or bumping it into something, than using it in a defense shooting and then having the police mess it up. Besides if you are under investigation for a homicide what makes you think the police will not take possession of ALL your guns???? A good self defense shooting IS a homicide. The question they will be looking at is it a justifiable homicide, manslaughter, negligent homicide or a murder.

My carry guns are hard to come by, Either 325 PDs or a 431, both of which now command about a $1500 price tag. They get hostler worn etc. Carrying a gun around all the time is NOT going to improve its value. LOL. But, I want what I feel id the best tool for ME to defend me and mine with. The value is a distant second.

 

[BSA1]

If you use your firearm in a self defense shooting, you are going to lose control of it for an indefinite period of time. Firearms are routinely abused and damaged while in police custody. Sometimes they are lost or stolen. Just something to keep in mind if you carry a collectible or heirloom for self defense.

Which is why the adage "3 is 2, 2 is 1 and 1 is None" is so important when is comes to self-defense firearms. As I expect my gun to be taken as part of the investigation after I am released by the Police I am simply going to my gun vault, retrieve my second gun which is the same model and has the same features, load it and put it in my holster or where I keep the primary (such as the nightstand).

As my primary gun just saved my butt I am not going to change guns immediately after the incident.

 

[Yaworski]

everything brakes that's why i carry two

My car has brakes but they never break.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Bought it like this and have carried it like this. No one gives a second glance to it, as they think it is a bible.

For many years I carried this Model 10 in a red leather "Bible cover" and left it on the dashboard or front seat of my truck. Nobody ever tried to get it.

It's actually pretty old now and I still trust it but I don't carry it anymore.

 

[BB57]

Which is why the adage "3 is 2, 2 is 1 and 1 is None" is so important when is comes to self-defense firearms. As I expect my gun to be taken as part of the investigation after I am released by the Police I am simply going to my gun vault, retrieve my second gun which is the same model and has the same features, load it and put it in my holster or where I keep the primary (such as the nightstand).

As my primary gun just saved my butt I am not going to change guns immediately after the incident.

I think what Paul is saying is that if your gun is confiscated as evidence, in many jurisdictions it won't be treated any differently than the gun taken off the bad guy. It will be dumped in a box in an evidence room, with no regard to whether it may be scratched etc. In some jurisdictions it will be marked with an electro pencil for chain of evidence and identification purposes. A case number etched in the side of a Colt Python won't enhance its value.

 

[Imissedagain]

But Officer, I shot them with the Raven and the Python is just my backup.
Where's the Raven, said the Officer.
It ________________, said I.