Relying on a vintage firearm for SD/EDC

[ISCS Yoda]

I have a Mauser HSc in .32 ACP and I'd carry it, the heel release doesn't bother me, but my FFL tells me it could be worth $2000 - I'm not risking an expensive, "vintage" gun like that when I have so many other EDC choices.

As for racoonbeast's lovely rant, I understand and agree with it except for a small part:

They need to step out to the twenty-five yard line and teach themselves to actually shoot, one round at a time.

Being able to hit a target at 25 yards is a skill we should all have but since it is a relatively unimportant skill for gunfighting in modern day America it needn't be emphasized so strongly. If you're in uniform and going to a war zone, yeah, 75 feet death shots could be important. If you're carrying a concealed handgun on the streets of modern day America your marksmanship skills at 75 feet pale in importance to your skills at 10 feet to 20 feet and your ability to face imminent death or serious bodily injury up close and personal and win.

As an aside, and I have always liked Wyatt Earp's comments about gun-fighting (and he was born precisely 100 years to the day before I was), but standing in the lot next to C.S. Fly's photo gallery, about six doors down from the OK Corral, the combatants were never more than 6 to 10 feet apart. You can look that up.

So even in the "Old West" 25 yard pistol marksmanship skills were not often a factor. Jus' sayin'.......

 

[Muss Muggins]

I've got a Colt 1903 I've been known to tote about . . .

 

[Puller]

I've got a Colt 1903 I've been known to tote about . . .

As have I . . . .

 

[Old cop]

My 1968 Colt Cobra, first off-duty gun, still shoots great but isn't carried anymore b/c I want to pass it down to my kids.

 

[BB57]

BLACKHAWKNJ, nice question. I think the better approach would be vintage design. I had purchased a Mauser HSc a few years back with the intention of being a CCW handgun, then the reality of current events sunk in. I still like the HSc, but I feel that the heel magazine release could get a user killed. Because of that revelation, I tend to avoid any handgun that might be called upon for self-defense duty that has a heel magazine release!

The data doesn't support your conclusions / fear.

First, based on John Lott's data and research about 95% of defensive handgun uses don't involve shots being fired.

Second, when shots are fired, about 50% of all assailants stop when hit by just one shot. That reflects the reality of psychological stops where getting shot sucks and consequently many people getting shot stop doing whatever is getting them shot.

Third, research by the National Police Foundation and the Major Cities Chiefs Association conducted research on officer involved shoots. One of their outputs was a breakdown of number and percentage of shots fired per officer in officer involved shootings. Grouping by 5 it's:
- 5 shots or less 71% of the time;
- 6-10 shots 17% of the time (10 shots or less 88% of the time); and
-11-15 shots 8% of the time (15 shorts or less 96% of the time).

https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/1.-OIS_incident_exec_summary_8.28.19.pdf

Now…those are officer involved shoots where they go into bad places looking for bad people, with more than one officer present 75% of the time. However, in only 33% of the shoots did more than one officer fire.

There may be some outliers and overlap but in single officer firing scenarios it's very unlikely that more than 5 rounds are required, and at the other extreme it's very unlikely that the 4% of engagements involving more than 15 shots fired per officer
involved just a single officer

For armed citizens who should be using good judgement and good SA to stay out of situations where they have to use a gun for self defense, the round count is going to be lower.

In terms of the HSc and it's 7+1 capacity, 83% of officer involved shoots were over and done in less than 8 shots per officer.

——

The key points here are:

- 95% of the time, just having and or drawing the gun is sufficient;

- even in police uses of firearms, 83% involve 8 shots or less.

- putting the previous two data points together, when using a 7+1 capacity handgun, a need to reload would not exist in 99.15% of defensive handgun uses.

- for that remaining 0.85%, I suggest you practice a tactical reload every time you do an administrative reload.

 

[steelslaver]

Steel doesn't age much. A 100 year old spring with 5000 flexes isn't much different than a 45 year old one with the same amount of use. A 100 year old cylinder that was working for 20 years isn't going to blow up under the same pressures 80 years later. My top break 44 Russian would kill someone as dead now as it would have 120 years ago and the same with my triple lock. If it isn't worn out or on the verge of wearing out from use it won't stop function just because of age. It is way more a question of actual use and maintenance than age. A worn out 100year old gun isn't any different than a worn out 1990s one or visa versa. While a mainspring that was cocked for years may take some set I wouldn't want to stand in front of it when you pulled the trigger. The ammo would be more apt to go bad than the spring. If that main spring fired 6 rounds after setting 100 years the odds are really strong it will fir another 500.

A 800 year old sword that wasn't allowed to rust will still take your head off

 

[AJ]

I at times carry a Colt Model 1903 Hammer in .38 ACP. Will post pictures later.

See Post # 35.

 

[OLDSTER]

This Korean War vintage Chi-Com Model 12 Tokarev sits in my bed stand. Reliable, accurate, and lethal.

 

[majick47]

HSc 7+1 capacity, Colt 1911 same capacity but different caliber.

 

[Imissedagain]

It's a brand new Smith with an overly vintage shooter that worries me.

 

[sipowicz]

My 1968 Colt Cobra, first off-duty gun, still shoots great but isn't carried anymore b/c I want to pass it down to my kids.

Mine's a 71…I carry it along with my 69 DS. The DS was my dad's so way more sentimental. I also hope to pass it down to my kid someday. So I don't shoot it anymore…but my SP101 is a tank so it lets me snubby practice without worry.

 

[Buford57]

When my wife and I met her house gun was a 1914 Luger. My off duty gun was a Browning 1922 .32. The Luger was ultra reliable with FMJ. The Browning not so much. I gave her a Model 67. She gave me a Colt Lawman. They and we are now vintage.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

This Korean War vintage Chi-Com Model 12 Tokarev sits in my bed stand. Reliable, accurate, and lethal.

Careful OLDSTER you might shoot through some walls if you ever had to use that Tok

 

[BSA1]

The critical point that is being overlooked is;

It is not that the odds are so great but that the consequences are so high.

Meaning these "vintage" or "old"'guns were state of gun design and manufacturing quality when they were new. I wonder how many owners put them away and chose to carry their Grandfather's or Father's Cap and Ball Revolver or a handgun that was not safe to carry with a round in chamber or under the hammer instead?

 

[AJ]

As Promised........

Bought it like this and have carried it like this. No one gives a second glance to it, as they think it is a bible.

 

[BB57]

The critical point that is being overlooked is;

It is not that the odds are so great but that the consequences are so high.

Meaning these "vintage" or "old"'guns were state of gun design and manufacturing quality when they were new. I wonder how many owners put them away and chose to carry their Grandfather's or Father's Cap and Ball Revolver or a handgun that was not safe to carry with a round in chamber or under the hammer instead?

There's a certain critical mass above which "more" isn't necessarily "better".

Look at airline travel. Supersonic airliners were faster but not "Better" in the long term. Only one was ever a commercial success, and it has long since been retired.

Same with jumbo jets like the 747, DC-10, MD-11 and A380, all of which are in sharp decline while the far less capable 737 and A320 soldier on in ever greater numbers with waitlists for new aircraft.

A 1911 is still an exceptionally effective self defense handgun. It more than exceeds the minimum.

The PP introduced DA/SA pistol operation to a handgun in 1929 and they made it slightly smaller with the PPK in 1931. The design itself is still a very concealable and adequately effective self defense handgun. And one that also has a high degree of class and elegance in design that polymer framed pistols just don't have.

The Browning Hi Power introduced the double stack high capacity magazine in 1935. With improvements in 9mm hollow point design since, it's more effective than ever as a self defense handgun. And there's no need to master two different trigger pulls.

A striker fire pistol with all the safeties tied to the trigger may boast less training required to use it safely. But seriously, that's not entirely true as it requires more training to reholster safely - and even clean safely in the case of the Glock given the requirement to pull the trigger before disassembling. Plus, do you seriously want to to promote less training with a pistol?

Tying all those safeties to the trigger works fine on a duty holster carried well out from the belt, it it's a safety hazard for someone carrying IWB, especially when paired with a poor holster design.

So is "better" actually "better" outside of a very narrow open carry duty holster, training budget challenged police department transitioning from revolvers setting? Arguably not.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

No such thing as too old as long as it functions and uses cartridges rather than BP and caps.

We had a gentleman stop a home invader with two in the hat using a Black Powder .44. So I don't know about too old. I wouldn't carry one, I carry a 1970's Model 19 2.5". My old off duty revolver.

 

[BSA1]

@BB57

You pay your money and take your chances. You seek comfort in statistics to justify your choices. I take a look at the same statistics and use the outliers as justification for carrying a higher capacity handgun loaded with current state of development ammunition instead of a 111 year old gun design and ammunition.

 

[tops]

I had a 1873 Remington Whitmore Lifter and a 1889 Remington that I used for vintage shoots. I sold both about 15 years ago but they fired every time the trigger was pulled. I have 3 old top break top pistols chambered in .32 S&W that fire every time the trigger is pulled. I have a M1917 S&W that has always worked.
I have a Beretta M682 Gold E that broke a hammer. I have a M29-2 that broke the pin that holds the trigger. I think they are all good as long they work and nobody knows when one will break.
I also don't put much stock in spring set. My grandpas LC Smith set in the closet for 30 years and it would still shoot. It has been years since it was last shot but I'll bet it will still work. Larry

 

[steelslaver]

The critical point that is being overlooked is;

It is not that the odds are so great but that the consequences are so high.

Meaning these "vintage" or "old"'guns were state of gun design and manufacturing quality when they were new. I wonder how many owners put them away and chose to carry their Grandfather's or Father's Cap and Ball Revolver or a handgun that was not safe to carry with a round in chamber or under the hammer instead?

My 100 year old triple lock is a more solid design than a brand new shiny stainless steel model 67. IT may not be shooting a 158 gr hollow point at 1300 fps, but a 255gr 45 traveling at 850fps is going to make a big hole. An all original Colt 1911 is actually stronger than my 1911 RUGER with an alloy frame. It is way more durable than any plastic Glock.

Depending on the weather and how I dress, I carry either a 325 in 45 acp or a model 431 in 32 H&R mag. But, because they are made with light alloy frames. I do not believe the 325 is bit more powerful than my cut down 1917 and the 325 will have to last another 80 years before we know it is as durable. The 431 is a little more than one of my old I frame 32 longs, but I would trust my life to any of the many of them I have. In fact my wife does carry one because she shoots it well.

No I do not carry a cap and ball revolver, I also don't carry a crossbow.