Remember when the term ".38 Special" mean't a serious service revolver?

[66Park]

Well, there are lots of ways of looking at this. Would I choose to carry a full size .38 as my every day concealment gun? No. Would I choose a full size .38 for my wife as a home defense gun? Yes. That is the most she could conceivably handle. Would I choose a J frame .38 as a concealment gun over a .380? Absolutely! I think modern .38 special ammo is on the lower end of acceptable self defense ammunition, but, to me at least, it is suitable in many situations. I carried an M60 with Hydra Shoks as a backup and when I couldn't conceal my 1911 in the '80s, and felt that it was the best option for the circumstances. As always, ymmv.

 

[SgtLumpy]

A Fabulous Thread

I just want to say what a great thread this is. I carried a 10/15/19/66 (with 38s) nearly all of my LE life until mandated to switch to a bottom feeder 9. Today, as a retired geezer, I sent myself a memo allowing the carry of 38s..

It's encouraging to know there's still shooters who are more focused on things like marksmanship than what brand of laser is best ...

Thanks for the memories.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[Kframerbluvr]

I just want to say what a great thread this is. I carried a 10/15/19/66 (with 38s) nearly all of my LE life until mandated to switch to a bottom feeder 9. Today, as a retired geezer, I sent myself a memo allowing the carry of 38s..
It's encouraging to know there's still shooters who are more focused on things like marksmanship than what brand of laser is best ...

Thanks for the memories.


Sgt Lumpy

Sgt. Lumpy, I like your "handle" . I had a sergeant fifteen years ago that had "Lumpy" as his nickname.
Unlike you, I am not retired yet and do not have permission on my badge to carry any kind of revolver anymore, so I did, in my opinion, the next best thing.. got myself a CCH permit and now carry my old Model 10 when I feel the urge. Still shoot it better than the combat Tupperware....

 

[Kframerbluvr]

The .38 is the Rodney Dangerfield of cartridges..... I bet the majority of .357 magnum guns out there are loaded with 5-8 .38 specials... maybe +P or +P+ but still .38s.

I will admit that most of the time my 3inch 66 is stoked with +P .38s. I want to know I've got a fast 2nd shot!

Heck ..... what's the line from Magnum Force where we learn Dirty Harry is really carrying down loaded .44 magnums....... LOL... .44 Specials ...... for better control...............

Edit: does anyone make a 38/44 hollow point load these days.... ????

Buffalo Bore "Heavy" 38 Special loads, I think, are what you may want. Considering ordering some for both of my M10 4" revolvers....

 

[BAM-BAM]

Men in the Eastern US must have been smaller and easier to kill in the "good old days" (pre 1930)*

Civilians carried Colt .25s in their vest pockets, or Colt 1903 .32apc. autos in their overcoats....... or maybe a revolver in .38 S&W.

Police carried 4 inch .32 Colt or S&W revolvers or,......

................... the S&W M&P in S&Ws .38Special!

In 1930.... we grew in stature and hid behind cars..... so the police needed the new and improved .38....... the .38/44 Heavy Duty.... chambered for the ".38 Super Police" round.

But that was still not enough....... 1935 S&W gave us the .357magnum..... to hunt big game and the FBI to hunt really, really bad guys........

and then S&W rested!




Until 1955 and the .44 magnum to hunt dangerous game!**

and in 1964 ..... we finally got the "ideal police round"*** ....... the .41magnum!!!!!!!




Footnotes:

* West of the Mississippi true law men needed a .44, .45 long Colt or .45acp!!!

** It wasn't until 1971 that we first saw Dirty Harry hunt really really dangerous game with his .44magnum

*** SCS&W p.220

 

[bmcgilvray]

I hold a different view than a previous poster above, of the .38 Special and the proper revolver in which to house it. I view the currently super popular .38 Special snubs as nothing more than a side show for the cartridge. In my view the .38 Special's proper and best application is still in the full-sized, six-shot, steel-framed revolver. Such revolvers may not be as easy to conceal, may not be as feathery light in weight, but they're distinctly easier to shoot. Their ergonomics offer an advantage. They offer more performance from the cartridge. They handle good full-power .38 Special loadings with less perceived recoil and they offer more durability when such loads are used with frequency.

As a hiking companion the full-sized .38 Special revolver offers the opportunity for surer hits on targets at distance. As a plinker it offers a revolver that is more gratifying to shoot over a long afternoon. For home defense it can gen up a little more punch and is more controllable.

The .38 Special is a better cartridge than something only fit for tiny snubs though a generation has completely forgotten that fact.

I too, only use .357 Magnum ammunition in my .357 Magnum revolvers. The rest of that story is that I don't select a .357 Magnum very often for anything but range use. I deliberately choose the .38 Special because I like the revolvers, trust the cartridge, and actually don't believe that the .357 offers as much of a performance advantage over the .38 Special as is popularly believed. I have used both in the field and seen both used in the field by others.

If I get the notion that I want more horsepower than is offered with my favorite .38 Special revolvers and loads then I'll reach right past the .357 Magnums for something in the .44/.45 caliber range. The .357 Magnum is a great all-around cartridge but big-bore is where it's at if one requires more meaningful "stomp" out of his handgun.

As it is, the .38 Special is a pretty well-balanced cartridge for flinging bullets of .358 diameter. It ought to be more popular with this current generation than it is.

 

[Jaymo]

I almost didn't buy a Ruger Speed Six 2.75" .38, because it wasn't .357.
Then, I came to my senses and it followed me home.
I remembered that the FBI load is a damned good defensive load.
I remembered that Buffalo Bore loads ammo for it that really doesn't give up anything to any defensive pistol round.
I also remembered that Jim Cirillo put .38 wadcutters to very good use.
Plus, I remembered how accurate .38 is and how well I shoot it.
I also remembered that only hits count.

 

[shouldazagged]

...I remembered that the FBI load is a damned good defensive load.
I remembered that Buffalo Bore loads ammo for it that really doesn't give up anything to any defensive pistol round.
I also remembered that Jim Cirillo put .38 wadcutters to very good use.
Plus, I remembered how accurate .38 is and how well I shoot it.
I also remembered that only hits count.

That says it very well!

 

[Jaymo]

So many people have been convinced by gun mags that only rounds that blow a softball sized hole in a man are good for self defense.
Jim Cirillo and company put a bunch of bad sumbitches in their graves with .38 wadcutters.
The media have also convinced most people that the bad guys all have full auto AKs and burpguns, and that the cops are woefully outgunned without 15+ round combat Tupperware.

Did I mention that I'm looking at a 10-6? It ain't pretty on the outside, but it's got a sweet trigger.
Plus, it's $200 out the door.

 

[66snub]

I'm issued a Sig 226 in 40sw for duty. Everyone in the county that I work is issued one as well, regardless of agency. However, inside a holster attached to my vest strap, is a bobbed M37 loaded with Remington 125 grain +P's.

When I'm off-duty, I carry a 649 no dash loaded with the Remmies too. When the weather gets cooler, I get out the M19 2 1/2" loaded, again, with the Remmies.

Semi autos are fine, and I love my Sigs, but the revolvers are home to me. They are my "1911". And specifically, the 38 special is my chosen cartridge for them. Plenty of power, great accuracy, tons of options for bullet weight. You don't stay in the game this long without being really good at what you do...

 

[BAM-BAM]

My post #65 in this thread was in jest...... after reading this thread and the threads about the "wimpy" 9mm cartridge, and "School me about the .380"

For the past 100 we seem to be trying for bigger, faster, bader .... ammo.......for hand guns. My handguns I'm sorry to say don't work like they do in the movies

Shot placement is King..... ..38/44, .357 and .38 super... were adopted or developed to shoot through car doors and windshields.

I don't shoot through a lot of car doors or windshields and I don't load up round nose lead or FMJ rounds except at the range.

My self defense guns are all loaded with modern hollow point .38,9mm or .45..I don't believe one should rely on some magic bullet to give a one shot stop 100% of the time.

In the years that I had to qualify I shot scores of 95% and up ...100% with fist size center of mass grouping was the norm. My goal is to get 2-3 well placed shots on target as quickly as possible...............I can do that better and faster with one of the three rounds listed than I can with a .357 magnum from a 2-4 inch 20-32 oz gun.

My goal is to continue my record of the past 35 years of having a concealed carry permit .... for the next 30...... of not shooting anybody!

I love my L Frames, and like my N frames......... but I'm generally carrying a 3913 or 3" 66 or 65.

"I don't always carry a revolver, but when I do.......... it's loaded with +P .38 special hollow points" LOL See post #56

 

[WaMike]

Lot of folks hear "38 Special" and think of a musical group....

Couple of years ago, a friend had a Victory in 38 S&W. We made some fun plinking loads for it, but in researching it, we discovered the old Brit 38-200 (or 380-200), which replaced the .455 in that Army's Webley. The Brit rational, I read, was that a slow, heavy bullet was just as effective in .38 as it was in .455 (insert comment on British military intelligence here).

Anyway, we found some commercial cast 200 gr. lead bullets, and ordered some .360" for him, plus some .358" for 38 Special.

For better or worse, our standard test of self-defense loads are a bunch of old stumps. The outside is still hard, and the insides are soft....just like people, we sez.....

Anyway, the 200 gr. bullets, especially in the higher velocity 38 Special perform pretty spectacularly. I'd hate to be in front of them.

And, echoing above, Lee wadcutters in a fairly hard mix, also do well.

 

[slfree]

My first handgun of my very own was a Webley in .455, firing .45acp in full moon clips. Uncle Sam issued me a S&W 38 and I fell in love with it. Started career with a 581 (may not be right) SS S&W with fixed sights and tiny butt. We were required to carry .38 as the decision makers were stupid. I carried mag anyway and a stripper clip of .38 for inspections. After 9 years of service I traded to the 4506 I still have. My most carried conceal is a .38 and I have never felt under armed. As has been said so many times, "shot placement is everything." Spray and pray in any caliber is for amateurs.

 

[Buford57]

When training for my first police job in the late 70s I bought a pre-war 6" M&P and each payday bought a bag of .38 Spl wadcutter reloads, with which I practiced...practiced...practiced. I saved up and bought a box of Norma hollow points to carry, since the only thing the department issued was one shirt badge and one hat badge. I was considered very progressive due to my choice of ammo by everyone but the chief, who carried a M39 loaded with ball ammo (which was pretty much standard for the 9mm at that time).

I later "graduated" to a M-28 and a larger department, which authorized either a .38 or .357 revolver for carry, but required use of issued .38 +P ammo, which changed every year (based on low bid) from Speer 125 gr JSP to S&W 158 gr. JRN (the core overpenetrated wonderfully, while the jacket sloughed off on down vests) to finally a very decent Federal 125 gr. JHP. which was visually indistinguishable from the Treasury 110 gr +P+ loads a friend at DEA passed along to me and accounted for on the books as "surplus - provided to local LE for training purposes".

Ammo has evolved to a much higher level since then. Expanding bullets tailored for expansion at .38 Spl velocities have improved the round's performance and when I bought a 642 a few years ago I had an embarrassment of riches in the area of load selection.

My wife and son each have a 4" .38 special as their house gun and if I didn't consider it a serious cartridge I would have given them something else.

 

[DR505]

Good reading here. I went through my first LE academy with a 4" Model 27. I was using magnum ammo. It was a regional academy for small departments, so all variety of sidearms showed. We had two auto-shooters, a .45 ACP 1911 guy and a 9 mm Model 39 guy. Most of the rest were Model 19/66 shooters, but had one or two with good old .38 spl. All of the revolvers were S&W, not a single Colt in the bunch.

 

[rwsmith]

I read that it takes...

Another LEO that started back in the '70's. In my agency the 38 Special it was recognized that you were going to need several rounds to stop a determined attacker.

Officers that were serious about surviving gunfights carried .357 Magnum ammo and if they really flush a Colt Python or S&W Model 27.

I read that it takes on the average 2.4 shots to stop an attacker with a .38 so you might as will shoot two and a half times to make sure.

 

[Bajadoc]

The .38 Special cartridge served the needs of law enforcement quite admirably for 75 years or so.
It's hard to argue with success.

You are assuming it was a success

 

[rwsmith]

I shoot both in my .357

I shoot plenty of .38 and .357. I could keep .357s in my gun, IF I WANTED TO, but I don't because I think the .38 +P is plenty adequate for very close encounters. People in this clime don't wear parkas. Someone already mentioned that today's bullets are not your father's bullets. Like I said before, I don't want to fire a .357 in the house. I didn't expect people on this forum to get macho and deride the balance between power and control.

 

[rwsmith]

What were the choices?

You are assuming it was a success

What were the choices many years ago? You either had a .38 or a gun that was too big/powerful for the average policeman (there weren't very many police women) to qualify with. It would seem that the answer would be just to get a bigger gun. But they've been fighting over the last 30 years about what is big enough without being too big? Just because the .38 was eventually found to be inadequate doesn't mean it wasn't a success for many years.

 

[slfree]

Went to the range the other day with a new .357. First one since 1988. Fired some .38 and .38+P and finally loaded up 6 rounds of .357. A minute later I had said the "S" word 6 times. And my right hand was throbbing a bit. I'd forgotten just what a wallop the magnum made, even in a 3" barrel. There is power to spare. If I'd had more rounds I'd have shot more, but around here .38/.357 at a fair price is rare. $29 a box for local reloads is just stupid in my book. Thank god I don't have to shoot anymore.

 

[Bat Guano]

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth Jeff Cooper convinced me that the 1911 was the answer to everything, including the questions I didn't have the wit to ask. In those days .38s were routinely loaded with LRN ammo and he had a point...

I carried a LW Colt Commander .45 with hot SWC handloads until the management weenies objected. About the same time I got designated the firearms training officer, and so decided that if it was going to be a revolver for me I would try to get good at it. It was also a time in which Young Turks were slipping Super Vel and hot handloads into their .38 Specials, so things were looking up. By the mid-80s we were qualifying with .357/125s, so like Luke Skywalker, the Force was definitely with us.

I still like the "Lightning Bolt" .357 load, but a decent LSWCHP +P load in a 442 or 4" gun is sufficient IMHO. As a rule I can shoot a wheelgun better on a bad day than I can shoot Tupperware on a good day, and that matters more than high capacity to me. I am also greatly impressed with the fact that a S&W or Ruger revolver is one of the most reliable machines ever made. It's normal to own revolvers that have never, ever malfunctioned; whereas it's normal to own semiautos that only choke "now and then" for indeterminate reasons.

At any rate, I seem to have accumulated more .38 Specials than I had planned to.

 

[Smithy]

Yes I do.

 

[dscampbell]

I was issued .38 Spl 158 grain RNL by my dept. we were allowed to carry personal weapons and I carried a mod 28, then a mod 13. Both with .357 mag ammo. But my scores were always better with .38 Spl LSWCHP+. The two shooting I was involved (another deputy pulled the trigger) in were settled by that .38 Spl P+ round. Now in retirement I carry a mod 10-5 3" or a 2" loaded with that round. So a .38 special is still a serious round for me.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Funny, I thought I wrote a partial reply here but I can't find it. Well, I'm using a phone so it's kind of too small a screen, I guess.
Let me cast my vote with the users of the .38 Special. While it is true that I collect them, that's not the point. I began collecting them AFTER I realized I had five or six already, buying them "just because", meaning because I like revolvers, I like snub nosed revolvers a lot (the collection began with a few of those), but just as importantly because they are simplicity to shoot "personified", they're accurate, modern, high quality defensive ammunition is available, and because even older style ammunition will do the job if I do mine.
I don't see what makes 9mm so much better but for round count and, in light of the average gunfight never requiring more than 2 or 3 rounds, I figure I'm good with 5, 6, or 7 (686+, always loaded at home and always with quality .38 Special ammunition).
Admittedly, my CS-45 has superior power with 7 rounds of .45 ACP but I can't drop it in my pocket like I can a 642 or 649. But I don't really think I have to have a .45 with me, although I love that gun and used to carry it frequently. I certainly cannot carry one of my full sized 9mms every day, anyway - they're huge! I can't hide one of those on my belt all day, every day. But a J frame, or a snub nosed K frame, easy to carry, easy to hide, and the .38 Special round is more than adequate for my personal self defense.
***GRJ***

 

[shouldazagged]

You are assuming it was a success

It was, countless times. See a post above by a retired LEO who was forced to prove the point, He's still with us.

Failures to stop? Sure. Still happening with 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. Even .357 Magnum occasionally. But there are also lots of cases on record of officers having to finish complicated shooting events with .38 Special backup guns, and doing so.

 

[kbm6893]

I knew a cop who killed a polar bear in the Brooklyn Zoo with a 4" Model 10 and 158 grain FMJ (NOT +P) ammo. One shot. Bear had mauled a kid who fell in the cage.

 

[Jaymo]

Two words. Jim Cirillo.
Two more. .38 Wadcutters.
Six more. Bad guys stopped with a quickness.

Officers have had failures to stop, even with 12 gauge 00 buck.

Two more words. Tim Sundles (I'd like to meet him and shake his hand)
Two more words. Buffalo Bore (see above)
158 grain LSWCHP that performs thusly:

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

125 grain HP (looks like it's a Gold Dot) that performs thusly:

a. S&W mod 60, 2 inch- 1072 fps (319 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod 66, 2.5 inch- 1108 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1180 fps (386 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1258 fps (439 ft. lbs.)

158 grain hard-cast Keith that performs thusly:

1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL

Tell me again, how .38 Special is an inferior manstopper?
Mr Sundles didn't get that memo.

.38 Spl and .44 Spl are two of my favorite rounds, and for the same reasons. They are easy to load, fantastically accurate, and easy to shoot well. Plus, they are excellent defensive rounds with the right bullet design.
Thing is, no handgun round is a very good stopper when the wrong bullet design is used.

 

[CoMF]

For a good while, my EDC was a 3" Model 65 loaded with Remington LSWCHPs. It was about as close to the archetypical service revolver as I could get. I never lacked confidence in it despite only having 6 shots in a purportedly "marginal" caliber because I could place my shots exactly where I wanted them at speed, and this with a bullet that typically performed well in FBI testing and routinely penetrated at least 12" in 10% gelatin with expansion in more cases than not. I also recall a very respectable man once opining that "we typically run out of time before we run out of ammo" (loosely paraphrased from memory).

Maybe I'm in the minority by saying this, but if I made a living routinely going into dangerous situations as a condition of my job, I'd be more concerned with how accurately I can fire my sidearm under stress than the caliber or capacity of it. With tried, tested and true loadings from the old stalwart LSWCHP to modern ones like the Speer GDSBHP or Winchester PDX1, these days you can do a lot worse than having to carry a lowly .38 Special as a sidearm and I would not feel undergunned in the slightest if that just so happened to be a S&W M&P in its many variations or a Colt Police Positive.

 

[charlie sherrill]

Back in 1973 I had gone down to Metarie, La. to a police supply house to shop for some gear. We still supplied our own then and there wasn't much to be found in Hattiesburg. As I was getting out of my car a New Orleans officer pulled up. He got out with a nickel model 15 and started in the door. I asked him what he was going to do with the revolver. He told me he had shot a guy six times with it and the guy was still able to shoot back at him. He said the shop owner was holding a .357 for him and he was going to trade the mod. 15 on that. I told him I'd give him $5.00 more than what they offered. I waited in the parking lot and a couple of minutes later he came out and said they offered $75.00. I handed him four twenties and he handed me the 15. At the time I had been looking for one for my fiancée and none were to be found. I still have it. It's got holster wear and the nickel has flaked a little. It is butter smooth and very accurate. It wears a Tyler-T and a trigger shoe. My wife was killed 28 years ago and my son knows to never get rid of this one if something happens to me.

Back to the original post. In my almost 44 year career I have seen many people shot with .38 specials and a few .38 S&W CTG. Some died, some didn't, depending on shot placement. It's pretty much that way with any caliber. I carry what I can comfortably hit with. A head shot with a .22 is just as effective as a heart shot with a .44 magnum. I have several .38 specials that I carry, depending on what I'm doing, and I don't feel undergunned with any of them as long as I have good ammo. I like any good +P hollowpoint. I don't like round nose anything unless I'm target shooting.

 

[jframe]

I own a snub Model 19-3, four inch 15-2, Model 49, Model 642, and a three inch Model 13-3, and my favorite load for all of them is the Remington 158gr +P lead hollow point. Found some at Gander Mountain, of all places, the other day. ANY of these .38/.357's loaded with this round does NOT make me feel undergunned.