Remember when the term ".38 Special" mean't a serious service revolver?

[Bat Guano]

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth Jeff Cooper convinced me that the 1911 was the answer to everything, including the questions I didn't have the wit to ask. In those days .38s were routinely loaded with LRN ammo and he had a point...

I carried a LW Colt Commander .45 with hot SWC handloads until the management weenies objected. About the same time I got designated the firearms training officer, and so decided that if it was going to be a revolver for me I would try to get good at it. It was also a time in which Young Turks were slipping Super Vel and hot handloads into their .38 Specials, so things were looking up. By the mid-80s we were qualifying with .357/125s, so like Luke Skywalker, the Force was definitely with us.

I still like the "Lightning Bolt" .357 load, but a decent LSWCHP +P load in a 442 or 4" gun is sufficient IMHO. As a rule I can shoot a wheelgun better on a bad day than I can shoot Tupperware on a good day, and that matters more than high capacity to me. I am also greatly impressed with the fact that a S&W or Ruger revolver is one of the most reliable machines ever made. It's normal to own revolvers that have never, ever malfunctioned; whereas it's normal to own semiautos that only choke "now and then" for indeterminate reasons.

At any rate, I seem to have accumulated more .38 Specials than I had planned to.

 

[Smithy]

Yes I do.

 

[dscampbell]

I was issued .38 Spl 158 grain RNL by my dept. we were allowed to carry personal weapons and I carried a mod 28, then a mod 13. Both with .357 mag ammo. But my scores were always better with .38 Spl LSWCHP+. The two shooting I was involved (another deputy pulled the trigger) in were settled by that .38 Spl P+ round. Now in retirement I carry a mod 10-5 3" or a 2" loaded with that round. So a .38 special is still a serious round for me.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Funny, I thought I wrote a partial reply here but I can't find it. Well, I'm using a phone so it's kind of too small a screen, I guess.
Let me cast my vote with the users of the .38 Special. While it is true that I collect them, that's not the point. I began collecting them AFTER I realized I had five or six already, buying them "just because", meaning because I like revolvers, I like snub nosed revolvers a lot (the collection began with a few of those), but just as importantly because they are simplicity to shoot "personified", they're accurate, modern, high quality defensive ammunition is available, and because even older style ammunition will do the job if I do mine.
I don't see what makes 9mm so much better but for round count and, in light of the average gunfight never requiring more than 2 or 3 rounds, I figure I'm good with 5, 6, or 7 (686+, always loaded at home and always with quality .38 Special ammunition).
Admittedly, my CS-45 has superior power with 7 rounds of .45 ACP but I can't drop it in my pocket like I can a 642 or 649. But I don't really think I have to have a .45 with me, although I love that gun and used to carry it frequently. I certainly cannot carry one of my full sized 9mms every day, anyway - they're huge! I can't hide one of those on my belt all day, every day. But a J frame, or a snub nosed K frame, easy to carry, easy to hide, and the .38 Special round is more than adequate for my personal self defense.
***GRJ***

 

[shouldazagged]

You are assuming it was a success

It was, countless times. See a post above by a retired LEO who was forced to prove the point, He's still with us.

Failures to stop? Sure. Still happening with 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. Even .357 Magnum occasionally. But there are also lots of cases on record of officers having to finish complicated shooting events with .38 Special backup guns, and doing so.

 

[kbm6893]

I knew a cop who killed a polar bear in the Brooklyn Zoo with a 4" Model 10 and 158 grain FMJ (NOT +P) ammo. One shot. Bear had mauled a kid who fell in the cage.

 

[Jaymo]

Two words. Jim Cirillo.
Two more. .38 Wadcutters.
Six more. Bad guys stopped with a quickness.

Officers have had failures to stop, even with 12 gauge 00 buck.

Two more words. Tim Sundles (I'd like to meet him and shake his hand)
Two more words. Buffalo Bore (see above)
158 grain LSWCHP that performs thusly:

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

125 grain HP (looks like it's a Gold Dot) that performs thusly:

a. S&W mod 60, 2 inch- 1072 fps (319 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod 66, 2.5 inch- 1108 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1180 fps (386 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1258 fps (439 ft. lbs.)

158 grain hard-cast Keith that performs thusly:

1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL

Tell me again, how .38 Special is an inferior manstopper?
Mr Sundles didn't get that memo.

.38 Spl and .44 Spl are two of my favorite rounds, and for the same reasons. They are easy to load, fantastically accurate, and easy to shoot well. Plus, they are excellent defensive rounds with the right bullet design.
Thing is, no handgun round is a very good stopper when the wrong bullet design is used.

 

[CoMF]

For a good while, my EDC was a 3" Model 65 loaded with Remington LSWCHPs. It was about as close to the archetypical service revolver as I could get. I never lacked confidence in it despite only having 6 shots in a purportedly "marginal" caliber because I could place my shots exactly where I wanted them at speed, and this with a bullet that typically performed well in FBI testing and routinely penetrated at least 12" in 10% gelatin with expansion in more cases than not. I also recall a very respectable man once opining that "we typically run out of time before we run out of ammo" (loosely paraphrased from memory).

Maybe I'm in the minority by saying this, but if I made a living routinely going into dangerous situations as a condition of my job, I'd be more concerned with how accurately I can fire my sidearm under stress than the caliber or capacity of it. With tried, tested and true loadings from the old stalwart LSWCHP to modern ones like the Speer GDSBHP or Winchester PDX1, these days you can do a lot worse than having to carry a lowly .38 Special as a sidearm and I would not feel undergunned in the slightest if that just so happened to be a S&W M&P in its many variations or a Colt Police Positive.

 

[charlie sherrill]

Back in 1973 I had gone down to Metarie, La. to a police supply house to shop for some gear. We still supplied our own then and there wasn't much to be found in Hattiesburg. As I was getting out of my car a New Orleans officer pulled up. He got out with a nickel model 15 and started in the door. I asked him what he was going to do with the revolver. He told me he had shot a guy six times with it and the guy was still able to shoot back at him. He said the shop owner was holding a .357 for him and he was going to trade the mod. 15 on that. I told him I'd give him $5.00 more than what they offered. I waited in the parking lot and a couple of minutes later he came out and said they offered $75.00. I handed him four twenties and he handed me the 15. At the time I had been looking for one for my fiancée and none were to be found. I still have it. It's got holster wear and the nickel has flaked a little. It is butter smooth and very accurate. It wears a Tyler-T and a trigger shoe. My wife was killed 28 years ago and my son knows to never get rid of this one if something happens to me.

Back to the original post. In my almost 44 year career I have seen many people shot with .38 specials and a few .38 S&W CTG. Some died, some didn't, depending on shot placement. It's pretty much that way with any caliber. I carry what I can comfortably hit with. A head shot with a .22 is just as effective as a heart shot with a .44 magnum. I have several .38 specials that I carry, depending on what I'm doing, and I don't feel undergunned with any of them as long as I have good ammo. I like any good +P hollowpoint. I don't like round nose anything unless I'm target shooting.

 

[jframe]

I own a snub Model 19-3, four inch 15-2, Model 49, Model 642, and a three inch Model 13-3, and my favorite load for all of them is the Remington 158gr +P lead hollow point. Found some at Gander Mountain, of all places, the other day. ANY of these .38/.357's loaded with this round does NOT make me feel undergunned.

 

[Jaymo]

I don't even like round nosed ammo for target shooting.
Wadctters and semi wadcutters make holes that are easier for my eyes to see.

Many years ago, I had a Rossi 68 .38 3".
I was in the woods shooting it with a variety of ammo.
A HUGE oak tree (blowdown) was my backstop.
The only round of 158 RNL I fired that day bounced off the trunk and hit me in the belt buckle.
Hurt like hell. Put a good scare into me. Did not penetrate, thank God.
I used the rest of the box of RNL at the indoor range, where I didn't have to worry about ricochets.
Or so I thought.
That same year, I was at the range and there were some gangsta-thug wannabes shooting on the lane on the far end of the range from me.
They had some sort of .45 caliber Tupperware SMG lookalike and were shooting it (sideways, of course) with some cheap .45 RNL.
Yeah, it jammed a bunch.
Yeah, they were cursing a bunch.
Yeah, their "groups" looked like 100 yard buckshot patterns.
Anyway, somehow, one of them managed to hit one of the concrete roof suppport pillars and his slug ricocheted and hit me in the right thigh.
Yeah, it hurt like a ***.
It broke the skin but didn't penetrate.
It felt like getting hit with a baseball.

 

[Muley Gil]

I started in law enforcement in 1976. My first handgun was a 1911 type .45. Next was a 1917, then a .44 Special. Went back to the 1911, only this time I built a full size 1911, but based it on an aluminum frame. I also carried various .45 Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 ACP revolvers.

I owned a few .357 revolvers, but bought them for target use. The only time I carried a .38 special was for an ankle carry back-up.

 

[DR505]

I have several .357's and like them very much. But for practice, I'll shoot .38 specials all day long. I carry either a .40 S&W or .45 ACP (dept. issue), but feel fully armed with a .38 special. Any handgun caliber is a tradeoff of usefulness/availability versus effectiveness.

Since it has been 10 posts without a photo, time for one now.

Model 67 (no dash) circa 1972

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Bill Jordan said the 38 Special was the most powerful cartridge the average man could hope to achive any degree of mastery with, Charlie Askins was pretty deadly with one, as was Jim Cirillo.
Mine-Security Industries of America (Made in NJ) snub, Colt Official Police, Detective Special Old Model, Detective Special '72, S&W Combat Masterpiece made in 1953.

 

[Pointblank2U]

Both the .38 Special and 9mm have been the beneficiaries of a lot of experimentation and improvements over the last 50 years or so. You can't compare the .38 Special of today with what we were stuck with in the 1970's, especially in rounds for short-barreled revolvers.

 

[tekarra]

The .38 spl round changed very little over the years but people's perception of the round changed as newer and more powerful rounds were developed and introduced to the market.

 

[Iggy]

My first duty sidearm was a 4" Model 10 .38 special loaded with RNL rounds. I was dispatched to assasinate a porkypine up in a tree. I shot him 6 times with that .38. He finally fell out of the tree due to the additional weight.

I kept thinkin' " what if that porky had a .38 and was shootin' back at me?"
That was all the excuse I needed to get me to the LGS and trade for the Model 58 .41 M&P I had been dreaming about for months, which I carried the rest of my LEO days.

That said, not being in a LEO role these days and with the improvement in .38 ammo, I've got a Model 12 .38 a hangin' on my hip and I don't feel a bit undergunned.

 

[shouldazagged]

The .38 spl round changed very little over the years but people's perception of the round changed as newer and more powerful rounds were developed and introduced to the market.

Actually, I think bullet design, powders, etc., have substantially improved the .38 Special cartridge. The reports I see on the Speer Gold Dot 135gr. +P for short barrels are very positive, to cite just one.

Having said that, however, I need to add that I still carry the old FBI load that has been around for over forty years. Now Buffalo Bore has come up with a low-flash standard-pressure version of that one that clocks an honest 880 fps from a two-inch barrel and a +P that gives almost 1100 fps.

I think the venerable caliber has come a long way. But you're right that other more powerful have come to prominence. They've been seen as more glamorous and touted as being wonder rounds.

 

[moosedog]

I remember standing in front of the gun counter at Epp's Sporting Goods on Gratiot in Detroit in about 1973 and taking my first serious look at the S&W 38 snub nosed model 49 sitting in the case.
I thought, "Man, i've got to get one of those one day." With the shrouded hammer, it looked to me like the head of a Cobra snake getting ready to strike.
I finally did buy one and carried it as an off duty and a backup gun for over 32 years. I still have it, along with other 38 Special revolvers.
Coming out of the police academy in Detroit in 1977, I was issued a model 10-5, five inch nickel revolver which I immediately put away and started carrying a model 29-2 in my own leather.
To me, the 38 Special was still a good compromise for a off duty but I knew the "bigger the better", all things considered.
The 38 Special has one of the longest histories of any cartridge and is inherently accurate. With modern ammo it can still be a good choice for self defense.

 

[riverrat38]

If Harry Callahan had been using a Glock 17, his dialogue would have been a bit different:

Callahan: I know what you're thinkin', punk. You're thinkin', did he fire seventeen shots, or only sixteen? Now, to tell you the truth, I've forgotten myself in all this excitement. But bein' this is a 9 mm, the most common handgun in the world, and it'll perforate your head, you've got to ask yourself a question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?!
Yea,right

Best,
Rick