Remember when the term ".38 Special" mean't a serious service revolver?

[oldafsp]

During the wheelgun days on that rig I carried two speedloaders on the left side along with the cartridge slide. And a spare speed strip in my pocket next to Mr. Blackjack.

That holster is a Bianchi Border Patrol thumbreak, fully lined. Not a cheap rig back in it's day. Most of the guys I worked with had those ugly security holsters..It wasn't mandatory so I stuck with my rig. It was more comfortable and faster.

The rig below was the first holster I used in my civilian LE career. A Safety-Speed swivel rig that was the greatest while seated in the car. The split safety strap had a thumb break on the back side. Another fast drawing rig.

Where as some guys made a big show out of unstrapping when they got out of the car, I didn't. It was ready when I got out of the car and didn't appear overly aggressive in any way.



Of course we also drove "real" cars then too!

 

[bummer]

Down the basement i still have two of my old Sam Brown rigs with holsters, cuff case and speed loaders still attached. Every couple of years i go down and try them on......How fat did i get?

The leather shrunk

 

[Bajadoc]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

 

[Cocked & Locked]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

I guess because no gun manufacturer has made plastic bottom feeders for it.

 

[STCM(SW)]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

Well, the guys in the field don't get to pick what they want to use may also have something to do with it.....

After all, some real know-hows think a 9 mm bottom feeder are great and better the a .45 ACP.....

 

[RV4driver]

I do a lot of CCW classes in Colorado, and the 686+ is by far the most popular handgun of everything I have them shoot. I even had a 10 year old student say one day, "it's scary, but I like it!" To this day, my favorite student quote! It just fits so many things, from women to aerobatics.
This list includes Glocks, Berettas, 1911's, Walthers and God knows what else. Almost all of the students are more accurate with the 686. I know it's my favorite handgun of my collection. It may not be the most powerful, but it will take out the center of the target more often than any of the others.

Jeff

 

[elm_creek_smith]

When I was a kid, back in the dark ages, they were "Police Specials." It didn't matter if they were Smiths or Colts; as long as they had 4 to 6 inch barrels they were "Police Specials." Everything with a 3 inch barrel or shorter was a "Snubnose." The Highway Patrol carried .357 Magnums and that was that!

As a youngster I was brainwashed by Col. Jeff Cooper and had to have a .45 auto which was my first "I bought this" gun. Then the Army issued me a Pistol, M1911A1, Cal. .45 ACP. I was in heaven right up to the point where they gave me a 9mm.

Before and after I retired, I went through a bunch of different guns in a bunch of different calibers. Now, I'm a security officer for a local government (There are some things police officers won't do.), and I carry a four inch S&W Model 686 on duty with a S&W Model 37 in my off-side pocket.

I no longer have any semiautomatic handguns, and all my carry guns are .38s or .357s.

ECS

 

[SgtLumpy]

As a youngster I was brainwashed by Col. Jeff Cooper and had to have a .45 auto...

I have no doubts that a 1911 is a fine gun. Would be a great carry gun, police gun, military gun etc. But when I read Cooper decades ago I always colored his view of 1911s with two things.

1) He was a marine for heaven's sake. He was indoctrinated early and for years about the 1911.

2) His writings often stressed disaster scenarios. He once said you should own a Chevy pickup with a small block engine because it was the most popular vehicle in north and south America. You could always buy/barter/steal parts for it. He said you should own a 1911 because it was issued to thousands and thousands of military troops. There would always be parts and ammo available for it.

Cooper also wrote on the man stopping power of the 45 ACP, of course. And I have no argument with that. Actually I have no argument with anyone carrying anything. As long as I'm comfortable and familiar with my weapon, and I've got ammo, it really doesn't matter if I've got a 22 mag derringer or a 15 round ParaOrd 45 or a J/K/L/N frame 38/357 or anything else.

Ninja throwing stars don't seem particularly practical, but that's just my opinion. I imagine a trained ninja could probably beat me to the draw with my J frame, then leap up to the top of the nearest three story building and vanish before I got my speed strip out of it's drop pouch.

Sgt Lumpy

 

[denverpilot]

There is no way for me to prove it but I would guess that the .38 Special has put down more men than any other single cartridge.

You'd be flat wrong, considering it's not a popular military round.

Or would you like to switch that statement to include "outside of war"?

 

[PALADIN85020]

You'd be flat wrong, considering it's not a popular military round.

Or would you like to switch that statement to include "outside of war"?

Opinions vary. I've read (in different accounts) that .25 ACP or .22 LR has been responsible for the most deaths. That's deaths, not "stops." I suspect that not many people are shot with .25 ACP guns in modern times, but the little semiautos used to be really popular as "vest pocket" guns. The .22 LR guns are still everywhere, and more numerous than the centerfires. I've heard that the Mafia still likes that caliber to "take care of" people.

John

 

[JoeM19]

Time Flies...

And a snub nose J frame or D frame mean't a snub nose?


"I later got another Colt Official Police postwar from 1961,..." .

In September 1966. when I was sworn in as a brand new uniform officer, I was issued a Colt Official Police, and it needed refurbishing too. I was told that it was all they had at the time. I had no complaints. It functioned perfectly and I had no doubt that it would do the job. Several months later they called it in and issued me a S&W Model 10. I carried Smiths in some form till I retired in '89. The best one I had and really fought to keep from giving it back was a 4" Model 66. I carried it in a pancake under my coat for years. I got a M66 2.5" as a replacement.

Hmmm. Long time ago in a not so far-away place. - 'ole joe.

 

[oldafsp]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

It has only disappeared from the duty sidearm status. There are alot of LE's that carry J frame .38's as a back up to this day...

And as a reliable home defense weapon it is without a doubt a winner.

When it was all we had, you became proficient. You learned the little tricks prior to speed loaders of pulling two rounds at a time from that cartridge slide.

I still to this day practice loading 2 rounds, indexing the cylinder and putting 2 quick rounds on my target. I can do it with my eyes closed.

Old habits die hard I guess...

 

[yardboy]

A very nice thread! I have always thought a .38 Special round was pretty good medicine.

 

[franzas]

I agree with y'all. I had always wanted a snubnose .38 special for when I was old enough to carry. I was trying to decide on a 36 or Detective Special. I wanted the Colt because 6 is my lucky number. Turns out I was broke when I turned 21, so I bought an ex-VSP 64-3 off a friend for $120. I immediately fell in love with the K-frame. Right now I carry a 10-5 that I bought new (yes, new- unfired, no cyl ring, etc.) off Armslist.

People ask why carry a .38 when you can have a .357? the .38 has been a manstopper for 100+ years. I don't believe in the .357 because for me follow-up shots are near-impossible. S&W makes a fine product and I'm proud to own a piece of history.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

The gun that started it all was my grandfather's 1941 Colt Official Police that was passed down and was the first hand gun I ever fired when I was 8 years old. I buy and sell alot by nature so lots of my old Smiths are now gone...but I still have the old Colt OP...

Beautiful gun. And a great momento of your grandfather. That is a keeper forever. Hopefully you have been able to share it with your kids.

P.S. do not ever refinish it

 

[sac-gunslinger]

The leather shrunk

Ya, ya, Mugsy, dat's what happened wit my rigs too. Dey shrunk. Whodda thunk that leather could shrink that much, huh?

I have a rig set up for when I am wandering far away from civilization. 1 3/4" border patrol belt with a high-ride holster, Shoemaker speedloader pouch, knife pouch. Just added a handcuff carrier because you "need some restraint available." A few extra matching pieces for carrying extra ammo when needed. Very comfortable, weapon handy to access.

Hmmmmm, it sounds very much like a duty rig, doesn't it. Can't beat what works.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

why carry a .38 when you can have a .357? the .38 has been a manstopper for 100+ years.

The 38 is "just enough." Just enough to handle without stress. Just enough to not over-penetrate. Just enough IF you do your job right.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Of course we also drove "real" cars then too!

Beautiful car. Always wanted to drive one but I got stuck with a tinny little Nova. Fast, but tinny, crappy air conditioning.

My current car is a '99 CrownVic, go figure.

 

[L Pete]

Well, I've read this entire thread, and read where numerous posters stated that when they started in LE, way back when, that the 38 Special was "on its way out". So, I have a question for those posters. If that is true, then why does Smith & Wesson keep on making 'em? Smith & Wesson along with several other revolver makers just keep turning the out. Somebody thinks they're still good enough to get the job done. If it is so inferior to other cartridges, why do the ammo makers always include it in their new line of defensive ammo, and it's usually one of the first of their "new line" to be introduced. I don't live in New York City, but I learned that the reason the NYPD went to the Glock 19 in 9mm was not because the cartridge was ineffective, but because the perps in the city were using hi-cap autos, and the NYPD was just trying to keep up and stay alive. It was my understanding that they were very happy with the effectiveness of the 38, and that it was the handgun that they had become dissatisfied with. I imagine that NYPD has a fair amount of shootings that would give them vital information to help their decision making processes. Anyway, I personally feel that the 38 Special is still a viable defensive round, that is easy to train with, easy to reload, and as effective some other defensive rounds.

SGT LUMPY, I have to agree with you about Col. Cooper, and will say that your opinion of him is higher than mine.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I have always been a fan of Jeff Cooper. And the 1911. And the .45 ACP cartridge. However, when I switched over to the 1911, there was simply no real good 9mm ammo. 40 caliber ammo was really far down the road, and if you wanted a wonder-nine, you could have an S&W 1st Gen, a Walther P38 or a Browning HP.

Times, as they say, are different. The .40 caliber is fine, but the 9mm has really benefited from all of the ammo research brought about by the Miami shoot-out of 1986.

The really good 9mm loads (here I refer ONLY to the 115 grain JHP Federal 9BPLE, the Winchester 127 grain JHP +P+ and the 147 grain Winchester RA9B/RA9T) do things that were unheard of back in Jeff Cooper's day.

And, the 9mm is a much better stopper AND gives a higher magazine capacity. I know all of the cute phrases about high mag capacity is only important if you plan to miss a lot, etc., but if you can have a good stopper AND high mag capacity, why would you not.

The bottom line is that the really good .45 ACP premium JHP loads are better than 230 grain ball, and the really good loads in .40 and in 9mm perform very nicely also.

Thus, take your pick among good pistols and loads and you are better off than whatever you could get in any caliber 35 years ago.

Oh, and by the way - the old Model 10 (or a new Model 10) is still a pretty darn good performer - much better than 35 years ago because of the new premium loads. Personally, I believe you are well-served with a good S&W K frame 38 Special loaded with the right ammo or with one of the good duty pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

 

[L Pete]

I've got no argument about the 45 ACP, and why Cooper loved it, but I have to say this. The 45 has nothing on the 357 mag, and with round nose ammo, it only has a little over the 38 Special. Yeah, bore size is bigger, but my belief is that similar bullet shapes as similar velocities react similarly. Too me, it's more about bullet shape and performance. If the 38 Special had be loaded with semi-wadcutter bullets way back when, I believe the story would be different nowadays. That's way the 158 gr. SWCHP is still the "gold standard" for performance in 38 Special, today. The newer high tech bonded bullets of today are gaining in popularity, but they are a recent phenomenum. Unfortunately, the 1911s of the day required round nose bullets so they could feed reliably. Semi-wadcutters required feed ramp work on most 1911s back in the day, and that cost money that some of the officers back then couldn't afford, much less finding a proper gunsmith to perform the work. The Colonel preached one theory and one theory only, and in his eyes only his theory was correct, anything else was BS.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

that right there

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Thus, take your pick among good pistols and loads and you are better off than whatever you could get in any caliber 35 years ago.

I have been carrying defensively for about 40 years. The selection of "performance ammo" is several orders of magnitude greater than what it was in 1975. With all due respect for the Colonel, you have to constantly re-evaluate information to determine if you need to update your opinions.

Oh, and by the way - the old Model 10 (or a new Model 10) is still a pretty darn good performer

Two things have happened. One, we have learned more about actual performance than we knew years ago. Model 10/38 Special was never as bad as we thought it was. Two, new loads and bullet types have improved possible performance. The M10 is not just for grandma any more.

I have moved back to the M10 (well, M64) and the simplicity it offers.

 

[Doug M.]

I started really getting interested in firearms in the mid 70s, and the .38 was reviled as a "widow maker", especially in the 158 grain RNL. I have little problem with a good SWC even at close to standard velocity as a .38 special carry/duty load, but the RNL was just a loser. The .41 magnum in SWC was considered a really cutting edge sidearm, and far better. Cooper touted the 1911 for lots of reasons, not the least of which was ergonomics. He also shot with two hands when that was not common.

The biggest single problem with the .38, other than the RNL load, was that the state of training in shooting handguns was somewhere on the wrong side of primitive; the knowledge of anatomy in terms of target areas was darned poor, and tactics of encounter were almost as bad as shooting skill training. There was also a failure to recognize that one carries a sidearm because they do not expect a problem - if you expect a problem and can't be elsewhere, you need a long gun, preferably a rifle, but at least a shotgun with slugs. Any cop who gets out of the car at a potentially serious call who is not taking his carbine darned well better have a carbine equipped partner, or expect some serious discipline.

Combine the typical sissified command officer who hides under his desk and sucks his thumb when there is political fallout over a clearly justified OIS with all that, and the world has lots of flaws. When is the last time you EVER heard a command officer tell people what they need to hear: cops don't shoot near as many offenders as they should, MAYBE 5% of them. There are a lot of command folks would rather cops die than spend money on training and equipment, or deal with the fallout over someone's little darling who was just getting his life together (we need a *barf* smiley) getting dumped when he pulled a knife on a cop than do the right thing.

Can the .38 special revolver do a decent job? Yes. Are there better choices in terms of ergonomics, etc, especially with modern ammo? Yup. Did I ever consider it a serious use sidearm? Nope. A J frame is a BUG only to me, and when I have to carry a revolver on my trip to a mag capacity limited state later this week, I'll carry my 296 and my 940. I could carry the 642 instead of the 940, but there are reasons for the choice which are not limited to ballistics.

 

[g17]

I remember that well. Started life with a 15-3