Remember when the term ".38 Special" mean't a serious service revolver?

[oldafsp]

During the wheelgun days on that rig I carried two speedloaders on the left side along with the cartridge slide. And a spare speed strip in my pocket next to Mr. Blackjack.

That holster is a Bianchi Border Patrol thumbreak, fully lined. Not a cheap rig back in it's day. Most of the guys I worked with had those ugly security holsters..It wasn't mandatory so I stuck with my rig. It was more comfortable and faster.

The rig below was the first holster I used in my civilian LE career. A Safety-Speed swivel rig that was the greatest while seated in the car. The split safety strap had a thumb break on the back side. Another fast drawing rig.

Where as some guys made a big show out of unstrapping when they got out of the car, I didn't. It was ready when I got out of the car and didn't appear overly aggressive in any way.



Of course we also drove "real" cars then too!

 

[bummer]

Down the basement i still have two of my old Sam Brown rigs with holsters, cuff case and speed loaders still attached. Every couple of years i go down and try them on......How fat did i get?

The leather shrunk

 

[Bajadoc]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

 

[Cocked & Locked]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

I guess because no gun manufacturer has made plastic bottom feeders for it.

 

[STCM(SW)]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

Well, the guys in the field don't get to pick what they want to use may also have something to do with it.....

After all, some real know-hows think a 9 mm bottom feeder are great and better the a .45 ACP.....

 

[RV4driver]

I do a lot of CCW classes in Colorado, and the 686+ is by far the most popular handgun of everything I have them shoot. I even had a 10 year old student say one day, "it's scary, but I like it!" To this day, my favorite student quote! It just fits so many things, from women to aerobatics.
This list includes Glocks, Berettas, 1911's, Walthers and God knows what else. Almost all of the students are more accurate with the 686. I know it's my favorite handgun of my collection. It may not be the most powerful, but it will take out the center of the target more often than any of the others.

Jeff

 

[elm_creek_smith]

When I was a kid, back in the dark ages, they were "Police Specials." It didn't matter if they were Smiths or Colts; as long as they had 4 to 6 inch barrels they were "Police Specials." Everything with a 3 inch barrel or shorter was a "Snubnose." The Highway Patrol carried .357 Magnums and that was that!

As a youngster I was brainwashed by Col. Jeff Cooper and had to have a .45 auto which was my first "I bought this" gun. Then the Army issued me a Pistol, M1911A1, Cal. .45 ACP. I was in heaven right up to the point where they gave me a 9mm.

Before and after I retired, I went through a bunch of different guns in a bunch of different calibers. Now, I'm a security officer for a local government (There are some things police officers won't do.), and I carry a four inch S&W Model 686 on duty with a S&W Model 37 in my off-side pocket.

I no longer have any semiautomatic handguns, and all my carry guns are .38s or .357s.

ECS

 

[SgtLumpy]

As a youngster I was brainwashed by Col. Jeff Cooper and had to have a .45 auto...

I have no doubts that a 1911 is a fine gun. Would be a great carry gun, police gun, military gun etc. But when I read Cooper decades ago I always colored his view of 1911s with two things.

1) He was a marine for heaven's sake. He was indoctrinated early and for years about the 1911.

2) His writings often stressed disaster scenarios. He once said you should own a Chevy pickup with a small block engine because it was the most popular vehicle in north and south America. You could always buy/barter/steal parts for it. He said you should own a 1911 because it was issued to thousands and thousands of military troops. There would always be parts and ammo available for it.

Cooper also wrote on the man stopping power of the 45 ACP, of course. And I have no argument with that. Actually I have no argument with anyone carrying anything. As long as I'm comfortable and familiar with my weapon, and I've got ammo, it really doesn't matter if I've got a 22 mag derringer or a 15 round ParaOrd 45 or a J/K/L/N frame 38/357 or anything else.

Ninja throwing stars don't seem particularly practical, but that's just my opinion. I imagine a trained ninja could probably beat me to the draw with my J frame, then leap up to the top of the nearest three story building and vanish before I got my speed strip out of it's drop pouch.

Sgt Lumpy

 

[denverpilot]

There is no way for me to prove it but I would guess that the .38 Special has put down more men than any other single cartridge.

You'd be flat wrong, considering it's not a popular military round.

Or would you like to switch that statement to include "outside of war"?

 

[PALADIN85020]

You'd be flat wrong, considering it's not a popular military round.

Or would you like to switch that statement to include "outside of war"?

Opinions vary. I've read (in different accounts) that .25 ACP or .22 LR has been responsible for the most deaths. That's deaths, not "stops." I suspect that not many people are shot with .25 ACP guns in modern times, but the little semiautos used to be really popular as "vest pocket" guns. The .22 LR guns are still everywhere, and more numerous than the centerfires. I've heard that the Mafia still likes that caliber to "take care of" people.

John

 

[JoeM19]

Time Flies...

And a snub nose J frame or D frame mean't a snub nose?


"I later got another Colt Official Police postwar from 1961,..." .

In September 1966. when I was sworn in as a brand new uniform officer, I was issued a Colt Official Police, and it needed refurbishing too. I was told that it was all they had at the time. I had no complaints. It functioned perfectly and I had no doubt that it would do the job. Several months later they called it in and issued me a S&W Model 10. I carried Smiths in some form till I retired in '89. The best one I had and really fought to keep from giving it back was a 4" Model 66. I carried it in a pancake under my coat for years. I got a M66 2.5" as a replacement.

Hmmm. Long time ago in a not so far-away place. - 'ole joe.

 

[oldafsp]

I love .38 special for fun target shooting and reloading. But if it is so great for self defense why has it disappeared from law enforcement and military use?

It has only disappeared from the duty sidearm status. There are alot of LE's that carry J frame .38's as a back up to this day...

And as a reliable home defense weapon it is without a doubt a winner.

When it was all we had, you became proficient. You learned the little tricks prior to speed loaders of pulling two rounds at a time from that cartridge slide.

I still to this day practice loading 2 rounds, indexing the cylinder and putting 2 quick rounds on my target. I can do it with my eyes closed.

Old habits die hard I guess...

 

[yardboy]

A very nice thread! I have always thought a .38 Special round was pretty good medicine.

 

[franzas]

I agree with y'all. I had always wanted a snubnose .38 special for when I was old enough to carry. I was trying to decide on a 36 or Detective Special. I wanted the Colt because 6 is my lucky number. Turns out I was broke when I turned 21, so I bought an ex-VSP 64-3 off a friend for $120. I immediately fell in love with the K-frame. Right now I carry a 10-5 that I bought new (yes, new- unfired, no cyl ring, etc.) off Armslist.

People ask why carry a .38 when you can have a .357? the .38 has been a manstopper for 100+ years. I don't believe in the .357 because for me follow-up shots are near-impossible. S&W makes a fine product and I'm proud to own a piece of history.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

The gun that started it all was my grandfather's 1941 Colt Official Police that was passed down and was the first hand gun I ever fired when I was 8 years old. I buy and sell alot by nature so lots of my old Smiths are now gone...but I still have the old Colt OP...

Beautiful gun. And a great momento of your grandfather. That is a keeper forever. Hopefully you have been able to share it with your kids.

P.S. do not ever refinish it

 

[sac-gunslinger]

The leather shrunk

Ya, ya, Mugsy, dat's what happened wit my rigs too. Dey shrunk. Whodda thunk that leather could shrink that much, huh?

I have a rig set up for when I am wandering far away from civilization. 1 3/4" border patrol belt with a high-ride holster, Shoemaker speedloader pouch, knife pouch. Just added a handcuff carrier because you "need some restraint available." A few extra matching pieces for carrying extra ammo when needed. Very comfortable, weapon handy to access.

Hmmmmm, it sounds very much like a duty rig, doesn't it. Can't beat what works.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

why carry a .38 when you can have a .357? the .38 has been a manstopper for 100+ years.

The 38 is "just enough." Just enough to handle without stress. Just enough to not over-penetrate. Just enough IF you do your job right.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Of course we also drove "real" cars then too!

Beautiful car. Always wanted to drive one but I got stuck with a tinny little Nova. Fast, but tinny, crappy air conditioning.

My current car is a '99 CrownVic, go figure.

 

[L Pete]

Well, I've read this entire thread, and read where numerous posters stated that when they started in LE, way back when, that the 38 Special was "on its way out". So, I have a question for those posters. If that is true, then why does Smith & Wesson keep on making 'em? Smith & Wesson along with several other revolver makers just keep turning the out. Somebody thinks they're still good enough to get the job done. If it is so inferior to other cartridges, why do the ammo makers always include it in their new line of defensive ammo, and it's usually one of the first of their "new line" to be introduced. I don't live in New York City, but I learned that the reason the NYPD went to the Glock 19 in 9mm was not because the cartridge was ineffective, but because the perps in the city were using hi-cap autos, and the NYPD was just trying to keep up and stay alive. It was my understanding that they were very happy with the effectiveness of the 38, and that it was the handgun that they had become dissatisfied with. I imagine that NYPD has a fair amount of shootings that would give them vital information to help their decision making processes. Anyway, I personally feel that the 38 Special is still a viable defensive round, that is easy to train with, easy to reload, and as effective some other defensive rounds.

SGT LUMPY, I have to agree with you about Col. Cooper, and will say that your opinion of him is higher than mine.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I have always been a fan of Jeff Cooper. And the 1911. And the .45 ACP cartridge. However, when I switched over to the 1911, there was simply no real good 9mm ammo. 40 caliber ammo was really far down the road, and if you wanted a wonder-nine, you could have an S&W 1st Gen, a Walther P38 or a Browning HP.

Times, as they say, are different. The .40 caliber is fine, but the 9mm has really benefited from all of the ammo research brought about by the Miami shoot-out of 1986.

The really good 9mm loads (here I refer ONLY to the 115 grain JHP Federal 9BPLE, the Winchester 127 grain JHP +P+ and the 147 grain Winchester RA9B/RA9T) do things that were unheard of back in Jeff Cooper's day.

And, the 9mm is a much better stopper AND gives a higher magazine capacity. I know all of the cute phrases about high mag capacity is only important if you plan to miss a lot, etc., but if you can have a good stopper AND high mag capacity, why would you not.

The bottom line is that the really good .45 ACP premium JHP loads are better than 230 grain ball, and the really good loads in .40 and in 9mm perform very nicely also.

Thus, take your pick among good pistols and loads and you are better off than whatever you could get in any caliber 35 years ago.

Oh, and by the way - the old Model 10 (or a new Model 10) is still a pretty darn good performer - much better than 35 years ago because of the new premium loads. Personally, I believe you are well-served with a good S&W K frame 38 Special loaded with the right ammo or with one of the good duty pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP.