Remington "Targetmaster" 148WC "index" 6138

[teletech]

So, I wound up with a couple boxes of this stuff years back and it just blew me away how good it was. So, the question is why?
Obviously I can reuse the brass, and 148WC bullets are easily available though might be constructed or alloyed differently, I suppose Remington primers would be worth trying, but the powder thing is a mystery.
I'm just wondering if anybody else has had this experience and perhaps managed to come up with a clone?

I do have one box left against a *very* special occasion, but taking some rounds to disassemble and investigate and some others to chrono it out of a couple guns is on my to-do list.

 

[Rpg]

Most target shooters used Bullseye 2.5-2.9grs.

 

[6GUNSONLY]

I'm currently using 700X for my wadcutter target loads, simply because I have a couple of pounds of it. When that runs out I'll use AA-5. I have a bunch of that Remington Targetmaster brass in original boxes and use it for my wadcutter loads, along with Western wadcutter brass from the same era. Good stuff, and I love the vintage look of those old boxes on my shelves.

 

[AJ]

I use 2.8 grains of Bullseye with a 148 grain HBWC. Seems to shoot as well as the old match loads. I still have a dozen or so NOS boxes on hand.

 

[gwpercle]

I use wadcutter brass to assemble "Target " ammo .

My favorite load is a cast 148 gr. WC , flat base with a button nose and a crimp groove ... Lyman #358091 is the mould/design ... I use this because
I cast my own bullets , to save money and I like to lightly crimp the bullet in the provided crimp groove .

Powder : try from 2.5 grs up to 3.5 grs Bullseye .
(My pet Target load is 2.7 grs Bullseye) I shot Indoor NRA Bullseye Match for about 15 years and this load got me my highest scores at 25 yards indoors .

If Bullseye powder is in short supply 2.8 grs of Red Dot powder will do nicely ... I won a First Place trophy with this load and like it a lot !

Gary

 

[Nevada Ed]

The only thing that is needed if you reuse the original Remington ammo box,
is that the 148 lead bullet needs to be set flush with the case,
in order to side into the box.

Enjoy those cases.

 

[AJ]

The only thing that is needed if you reuse the original Remington ammo box,
is that the 148 lead bullet needs to be set flush with the case,
in order to side into the box.

Enjoy those cases.

I have the target cases that I have shot up. I have regular .38 Special cases that I have shot & others that I have collected. I have not noticed a real difference in accuracy with my loads and the factory match. I am shooting them in my S&W 52, a Behlert PPC built on a S&W K frame, and my 27-2. Now age and other infirmities do take a toll on my accuracy nowadays.

 

[Rule3]

If I recall the bullets was a very soft alloy with a dry lube on it.


Being soft the bullet obturates in the barrel,making a good seal and fit


Missouri Bullet Company


Some load info here (for the M52 but doen't matter)


Model 52 loads





Premium 38 Special Ammo For Sale - 148 Grain TMWC Ammunition in Stock by Remington Performance WheelGun - 50 Rounds

 

[glenwolde]

I used to buy bulk Remington 148gr HBWC for reloading but they seem to have disappeared. But you can get equal results with pretty much any of the swagged HBWC. Hornady, Zero, or Precision Delta might be the only ones available at the moment. I haven't really checked lately.

The aforementioned load of Bullseye is the best place to start. I've shot a lot of 2.8gr. That is a "legendary" load. Any of the faster powders like 700-X, Titegroup, WST, and W231 would probably work quite well for you. I've used every one of those except Titegroup. I've even used Titewad but there's no published data for that.

Cast wadcutters are another option. This is where my experience seems to differ from most. I could never get the accuracy from cast wadcutters without bumping the load up. Many shoot 2.8gr Bullseye with cast wadcutters but I had to get up around 3.5gr+ to match the accuracy of the HBWCs.

 

[GB]

The answer to your question why is because of the consistent way they were loaded and the quality control used during production. As good as your Remingtons are, back in the day, Winchester and Federal loads were considered superior, at least when and where I was shooting. There is, of course, the preference shown by a particular gun but after that only the best shooters could tell them apart. All three will shoot better than most of us.

 

[noylj]

If I recall the bullets was a very soft alloy with a dry lube on it.


Being soft the bullet obturates in the barrel,making a good seal and fit


Missouri Bullet Company


Some load info here (for the M52 but doen't matter)


Model 52 loads





Premium 38 Special Ammo For Sale - 148 Grain TMWC Ammunition in Stock by Remington Performance WheelGun - 50 Rounds

They were about 13 BHN with a lube that seemed to be petrolatun/graphite. The were extremely accutate in all my M52 pistols

 

[venomballistics]

Will likely be bullseye, PB, or 700x

 

[Marlin57M]

Good article titled “New Powders for 38 Special” in February 2024 Shooting Times magazine. Using 7” S&W 686 Plus to test 148gr WC bullets from Acme, Hornady, Remington and Zero. Best 20 shot group was 1.01” at 25 yards with Remington 148 HBWC, 2.7gr of W244 powder and Federal 100 primers. 2.7gr of Bullseye powder yielded a 20 shot group of 1.19” with Remington bullet. The Remington 148gr HBWC shot best over all powder loads.

I have shot a lot of Bullseye and PPC with the 148gr HBWC and consider Remington to be the gold standard. I load the 148 HBWC with 2.8gr of Bullseye powder and Federal 100 primers.

 

[toad67]

Good article titled “New Powders for 38 Special” in February 2024 Shooting Times magazine. Using 7” S&W 686 Plus to test 148gr WC bullets from Acme, Hornady, Remington and Zero. Best 20 shot group was 1.01” at 25 yards with Remington 148 HBWC, 2.7gr of W244 powder and Federal 100 primers. 2.7gr of Bullseye powder yielded a 20 shot group of 1.19” with Remington bullet. The Remington 148gr HBWC shot best over all powder loads.

I have shot a lot of Bullseye and PPC with the 148gr HBWC and consider Remington to be the gold standard. I load the 148 HBWC with 2.8gr of Bullseye powder and Federal 100 primers.

Just read the same article about an hour ago, good info there.

 

[teletech]

Will likely be bullseye, PB, or 700x

I have several pounds of PB, but I've yet to find a load where I get any accuracy out of it. I do have some 700x left so I'll try that out for fun.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

Since Remington was owned by Dupont from the 1930s to 1993, they used Dupont powders for their ammunition. I would not surprise me to learn that it was loaded with 700X. Why don't you pull one and show us pics of the propellant.

2.5-2.8 grains of 700X is very accurate with the Remington 148 Targetmaster wadcutter. I have one box of 2000 of those bullets remaining. They are no longer to be had. The modern shooter has no idea what a wadcutter is anyway...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/709805-38-special-wadcutters.html#post141838999

 

[AJ]

Since Remington was owned by Dupont from the 1930s to 1993, they used Dupont powders for their ammunition. I would not surprise me to learn that it was loaded with 700X. Why don't you pull one and show us pics of the propellant.

2.5-2.8 grains of 700X is very accurate with the Remington 148 Targetmaster wadcutter. I have one box of 2000 of those bullets remaining. They are no longer to be had. The modern shooter has no idea what a wadcutter is anyway...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/709805-38-special-wadcutters.html#post141838999

Another reason to cast my own!

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

When I shot PPC the Gold Standard for factory loaded was Federal Match Wadcutters.

Most reloaders were using Speer HBWC over the others. Federal SPP of course and either Bullseye or W231 powder.

 

[teletech]

I've spent some hours now on this and other forums reading up on the (now mostly historical) use of wadcutters at 50-yards. Some deep rabbit-hole I found here!
Yes, apparently the Remington 148 was pretty much the gold standard bullet but it's just about totally extinct in the wild. A few suppliers still have boxes of 100 for sale, but they are likely out of production and I can't find any of the 2000 boxes available. Seems like there are other bullets that *might* be as good, or rather are about as good unless you aren't testing from a Ransom rest.
The brass is more special than I first realized. Apparently the double-cannelure cases from Remington, old Winchester (W-W marked) and some others (Western) have a thinner wall for more of the length of the case specifically to not swage the skirt on a long HBWC. Brass for LRN and similar bullets often is thicker back in the skirt area and that made for +P applications is extra thick. Factory resize dies tend to compress the brass a bit extra, so it's good to check the fit of your dies and your cylinder, but more important is the expander die, with many being too small and a .001" fit for the bullet being desirable.
It's a lot coming from a place of a humble reloader of bulk ammo.
I get about 2.5" groups at 25yd and 4.5" at 50yard from my current loads (125TC Lasercast over 3.4Titegroup). The Targetmasters were under 1.5" at 25 and *may* well work amazingly at 50, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings to find something that isn't at it's extreme range limit for accuracy at 50yds with a factory twist S&W.

 

[teletech]

I sacrificed a round today to measure the powder.
Looks like the extrusion was .035"dia and chopped about .004" thick, medium gray with a dark greenish cast, and has some rounding and "potato chip" to the shape.
None of the powders I looked at from my own collection had that color and few had that size.
Red Dot: much larger, more wrinkled
Titegroup: has no regular shape or size
2400: smaller and longer flakes, looks a lot like 3N37
PB: larger and very porous (hence the name)
Power Pistol: lighter color and flatter, but the same size
700X: much larger flake diameter but the same sheen.
Blue Dot: much larger diameter, the same level of potato chipping.
W571: very irregular flakes, some larger, some smaller.
N350: much longer, cylinders not flakes
3N37: smaller diameter and longer
Tragically, I don't have and Bullseye on the shelf just now to compare.