Resetting Elevator Trim on Touch & Go

[llowry61]

I did all my training in a Tomahawk then went on to flying a Cherokee Warrior. I was never taught to use trim except at cruise altitude.

I did learn a lesson doing a touch and go with my soon to be wife. We were landing at an airport that had trees about a 1/2 mile off the departure end of the runway. The Flaps are lever activated on that airplane and as I started climbing out after touching down the airplane didn't feel right. I suddenly realized I forgot to drop the flaps so I reached over and started to drop them and that airplane sunk like a rock. The trees jumped up in the cockpit window and I knew I had made a big mistake. I just held the climb and we cleared the trees but not by much. Had to clean out the shorts after that one ! Brenda was white as a sheet and said why did you fly so close to those trees.

 

[merl67]

I don't know anything about planes other than basics. My guess is all the holes in the cheese lined up for this unfortunate crash. I can only only imagine the long list of things a pilot must remember. I do suspect it's a lot like driving in that we have all doen it so much we do it without thinking in safety circles that is known as an error trap, or could it have been mechanical failure?

 

[LVSteve]

Did he shut off the fuel after crash? No Did he shutoff the ignition/battery switch after crash? No. But he DID turn around and shut off the camera!

That reminds me of this gem.

 

[Absalom]

To me it looked like a bad approach, plus lots of yoke movement that might suggest a strong crosswind. He looked too low to me from the beginning, then let the plane drift left of the center of the runway without any correction...

Indeed, he was low and fast. If you look at the right-seat yoke, there actually wasn't too much activity in evidence. Biggest problem appears to have been that he "forgot about his feet", a classic beginner's issue. The landing might have been salvaged with some assertive footwork on the rudder pedals, but that was not in his skill set; once on the ground, he just let the plane drive him wherever it felt like going.

 

[LennyLames]

. . . Biggest problem appears to have been that he "forgot about his feet", a classic beginner's issue.

I agree. The video in Post #17 appears to show a lack of rudder input. Notice at 28 seconds, the pilot was dealing with a right crosswind component that he was trying to overcome by turning the ailerons to the right. I've landed in crosswinds higher than a plane's "maximum demonstrated crosswind component" by using sufficient rudder input.



The original post reminded me of my days as a student pilot and my practice touch and goes. Even as a proverbial "120 pound weakling," I could easily overcome the elevator pressure of trim setting set for landing. However, if the NTSB concluded improper trim setting as the cause of the accident, I defer to them since they have more facts than I do. I'm not one of those talking heads on the news that play armchair quarterback on the cause of a plane accident.

But I do recall the biggest risks when I was practicing those touch and goes as a student pilot.

1. At high altitude airports, mixture = full rich for carbureted engines could cause the engine to produce lower power, or even quit. I actually had an engine quit when I pushed in the mixture control while landing at a high altitude airport.

2. Raising the flaps during take-off. This is the one I was most careful of. Because raising the flaps (part of the take-off routine) increases the stall speed, raising them too soon would cause a stall with insufficient altitude to recover, resulting in compression onto the ground.

I was on a touch and go practice and during the "go" part, I wasn't gaining speed or altitude, until I realized the flaps were fully lowered for landing. I think it was 40 degrees on this particular plane. Very fortunate that I remembered to raise the electric flaps incrementally as I gained speed. Otherwise, just flipping the switch to raise the flaps completely would have resulted in a stall.

 

[A-37]

On planes equipped with electric elevator trim control. It's imperative to know where the trim circuit breaker (CB) is located. While flying an Air Force A-37B on an after-maintenance test fight, I thumbed some down trim and the trim ran away. Pulling the CB stopped the problem. I didn't touch the CB again and landed with considerable back-stick force.

Remember the movie, "Flight"? The pilot had a down elevator problem and flew his MD-80 inverted, rolling upright for the landing. What a guy!

 

[Sistema1927]

1. At high altitude airports, mixture = full rich for carbureted engines could cause the engine to produce lower power, or even quit. I actually had an engine quit when I pushed in the mixture control while landing at a high altitude airport.

That was one of the benefits of learning how to fly at KAEG (5837' ASL), you were always aware of mixture. We would sometimes have pilots visit who had learned in the lowlands, and you could tell by watching and listening that they had neglected to lean properly before departure.

Another thing that I learned, and for which I was thankful that I had manual flaps, was the need to add some flaps to pop the plane out of ground effect on hot days when density altitude was close to the edge of aircraft performance. For six months of the year I never took off with more than 1/2 tanks.

We also had some significant cross winds, requiring a constant rudder pedal dance to keep lined up and proper use of ailerons to keep the upwind wing low. You also had to be aware of aileron position while taxiing. I honestly think that I learned in the absolute perfect environment for staying alive in challenging conditions.

It was quite an eye opener the first time that I flew out of an airport at sea level. Rate of climb was like a rocket ship compared to back home.

 

[Jeffrey A. Cooper]

Flying with one arm and one leg

In a motorcycle wreck where I shaved off my left arm and leg, my need for fun continued. I meant this flight instructor named Charlie Eyster who thought he could safely teach me to fly a 150.
Well we struggled for a dozen hours or so trying to find ways of controlling things. Then Charlie called me at work and said he knew how to fly, he was going to fly the plane without using his left arm or left leg. He flew it from the left seat, (typical Pilot In Charge seat), using the trim wheel for a little nose high for take off, pretty much he trimmed it for flight, for final even with flaps a stable desent was possible without a big attitute change if I took my hand off the control wheel to adjust the throttle. That control wheel changed everything.
As for the rudder pedals, i just keep my foot in the center for orientation and push accordingly. The toe brakes can be pushed together with one foot using Cessnas, Pipers have a control rod on the rudder pedals that makes braking impossible this way.
Everyone should learn the Trim Wheel early.

 

[Sistema1927]

In a motorcycle wreck where I shaved off my left arm and leg, my need for fun continued. I meant this flight instructor named Charlie Eyster who thought he could safely teach me to fly a 150.
Well we struggled for a dozen hours or so trying to find ways of controlling things. Then Charlie called me at work and said he knew how to fly, he was going to fly the plane without using his left arm or left leg. He flew it from the left seat, (typical Pilot In Charge seat), using the trim wheel for a little nose high for take off, pretty much he trimmed it for flight, for final even with flaps a stable desent was possible without a big attitute change if I took my hand off the control wheel to adjust the throttle. That control wheel changed everything.
As for the rudder pedals, i just keep my foot in the center for orientation and push accordingly. The toe brakes can be pushed together with one foot using Cessnas, Pipers have a control rod on the rudder pedals that makes braking impossible this way.
Everyone should learn the Trim Wheel early.

My hat is off to you!

Were you able to obtain a medical, and complete a check-ride to obtain a ticket, or was/is this an only with instructor proposition? Even if not, you are an inspiration for your adapt and overcome attitude.

 

[Jeffrey A. Cooper]

Sistema1927, I got about ten hours of solo flight during my college days before the money ran out, but was able to get a medical and now that I'm 66, am thinking about flight for sunny days again. Thank you, it does NOT count for tail draggers.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Recently there have been a couple threads on aircraft accidents that got me thinking about student pilots in light airplanes. Check lists are written in blood, but a common training maneuver, the Touch and Go, happens so quickly that check list items are done from memory. Probably the most important item is setting elevator trim from a landing setting to a take off setting. This is what happens when the trim is not reset.

Check lists exist so items don't have to be done from memory. Any instructor who allows a student to do procedures without his checklist out and open is a poor instructor and doing a disservice to the student. I understand that after years of doing procedures, they tend to become automatic, but in times of crisis or when distracted, the most important item seems to fly out the window of your memory. Something like shooting touch-and-goes don't happen so quickly, you know you're going to do one before it happens and you prepare for it, just as you would for a landing or takeoff.

If I didn't have my checklist out and open to the proper list during a check ride, it was an automatic bust, even if I was doing the correct thing at the correct time or sequence. And I wasn't even flying the plane (USAF Flight Nurse). The only thing more important during a flight was having our walkaround bottle full (oxygen).

My son-in-law is now working on his CFII rating, after having finished his PPL, instrument, commercial and CFI ratings. His instructors all required him to have the appropriate checklist on his knee board for whatever procedure he was getting ready to perform, as have the examiners during his check rides.

 

[CQB27]

While flying Army RC-12 (King Air 300s and 300s upgraded with 350 P&W engines)

Enter downwind, at midfield props to max, slow airspeed to Vref plus 30 knts, trim as necessary

Turn to base, reduce power to begin controlled descent, flaps to "approach", pitch to Vref plus 20 knts, trim as necessary

Turn to final, reduce airspeed to Vref plus 10 knts, trim as necessary

Landing assured, flaps full maintain Vref plus 10 knts.

Runway threshold, minor power/pitch adjustment, slowing to Vref at touchdown on the 1000 ft marker.

Trim adjustments were made throughout the descent to maintain airspeed/glide path until "landing assured". Some then chose to make trim adjustments at the "flaps full" setting, which neutralized the yoke during final descent and required positive rear yoke input at round out till touchdown. Others made no trim adjustment at "flaps full", which required positive forward input on the yoke to maintain airspeed/descent profile until round out, then a relaxing of the forward input at round out and a very slight rear input at touchdown. I preferred the latter because it was less work to reconfigure the flight control trim in the event of a go abound.

In the event of "go around/touch and go", power to max/flaps to take off (same as approach setting), V1-rotate, positive rate of climb, gear up, flaps up, set best climb speed, trim as necessary.

In Army fixed wing in the 90s the C-12/RC-12/OV-1 all had the same Vref approach profile, Plus 30 knts on downwind, plus 20 knts on base, plus 10 knts on final, slowing to Vref at touchdown. The Gulfstream boys may have flown a different profile (I don't know because I never got to fly those ), but I was always told every fixed wing AC followed that profile, including them. The OV-1 has manual trim only, the C-12 had manual/electric trim. The UH-1H had "force trim", but that's another subject for another time, lol.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Excuse me if I brag just a little about my wife. We both went to flight school together in 1986. Bought a Cessna 152II and both of us learned to fly in it. Here is her big day...Solo flight. Got the plane back in one piece!

 

[Absalom]

As a side note and personal observation:

Touch-and-gos have little instructional value other than cramming as many patterns and landings into expensive dual time as possible. Whenever traffic permitted, I was encouraged to do stop-and-gos. Fortunately, we had several airports including our home field at our disposal that combined long runways with light traffic, so that was often the case. Learning to plan your landing so you stop where you intend or need to, and starting a take-off from scratch after checking that the plane is properly configured, teaches much more than fumbling through a maneuver that, once you fly for real, you'll rarely need.

 

[Jessie]

I disagree with you on that Absalom. It crams the most flying time into practicing the most critical parts of flight, take offs and landings. It's a training regime and not really meant to be used in normal flying.
If you stop and go, that Hobbs meter continues to run while you're stopped and taxiing, learning nothing.

 

[alwslate]

Touch-and-goes are useful in training mostly to practice flying the pattern and learning to deal with wind and avoid flying the "coat hanger" approach. Once you have your license and your own plane that you're very familiar with you'll probably never do another touch-and-go.

 

[Absalom]

If you stop and go, that Hobbs meter continues to run while you're stopped and taxiing, learning nothing.

Not sure you mean the same thing as I, since a stop-and-go involves no taxiing. Your instructor says "Be stopped by the entrance to taxiway Charlie", you manage that or don't. Then you look at the appropriate checklist, reconfigure, and roll again, never leaving the runway.

I actually don't think it adds that much time. You do have to ask for it at a towered airport and get cleared. At the low-intensity class D fields where I practiced, controllers never refused; obviously, you don't if radio traffic indicates several planes lining up for landing.

 

[Jessie]

I see what you're saying but it was instilled in me in a short time that runway behind you is wasted runway. I USED to do intersection takeoffs but trained myself not to after a while.

 

[Sistema1927]

Speaking of stop and go's, I had the privilege of being the first pilot to fly a newly published ILS approach at KABQ. I was working on my instrument rating, and had just received my new Jep plates. I told my instructor about it, and we departed KAEG and asked for that approach at KABQ. The controller responded, "Is that approach published yet?" and I told them that I had the plate on my leg board. They gave me clearance, and I flew it down to a full stop. Tower asked what I wanted to do, and since it was a no wind day and that wasn't the active runway for jet traffic I just asked for permission to take off on the reciprocal. It was granted, I did a 180 on the runway, and took off for some more practice under the hood.

 

[washerman]

Trimming the elevator pressure out is very important when going around for another landing after a touchn go or a botched landing. Cessna aircraft have very large effective "barn" flaps and the change the pitch pressure significantly. If you have full flaps hanging out there and try to take off again then you better ease off to the second notch after applying the power and get that trim changed. Electric trim is easier than a wheel between the seats or the crank on the piper ceiling. Pilot does not have to remove one hand from other duties. Sure you can push the yoke hard against the out of trim pressure but that is poor pilot technique and potentially deadly. When you initiate a go around, you better hit full power, carb heat off (if no fuel injection) and get that nose pushed down before you end up in an accelerated stall.