Response question for the lawyers and LEOs

[V0OBWxZS16]

It is not safe to provide medical aid to the violent criminal you just defended yourself from. You are at risk from the shootee, any accomplices, and you probably don't have any PPE or equipment with you.

Can you imagine how the family's lawyer would spin it if you provided aid and he expired anyway?

This is a "damned if you don't" kind of situation IMO.

 

[Big Stick]

Duty to render aid ends when you have called 911. You have no idea if he has accomplices in the area, is actually seriously wounded, etc.... At least one instructor I have had recommended egressing the area ASAP and await instructions from the authorities, as you have no idea what else could happen during the time of response... Sure would suck busting your hump giving the guy CPR, only to have his lil'brother come up from behind and shoot you with your own gun.....

 

[rwsmith]

Shoot to......

Just one thing and I'll go back into my little corner: No one should EVER train " Shoot to Kill"............... Train to shoot "Center Mass" instead!! Less legal ramifications that way or so I was taught.....

Now Back to our regularly scheduled thread!

Shoot to STOP THE THREAT. I wouldn't say anything about center of mass as that is secondary.

 

[smutt]

Naw, let him bleed out. He'd do the same for you, right?

 

[Jessie]

Some observations, take them for whatever you think they are worth.

First, in a traffic accident with injuries, in most states you are legally required to render assistance if possible. What is different with the OPs scenario if the threat has been neutralized?

For the OP. What do YOU feel your MORAL obligation is, forgetting legality for a moment?

As a trained responder what does your state law say about your legal responsibility to render aid to an injured person? Does it make any exception if you are the one who caused the injury?

And finally, doesn't it seem like you will be more likely for your actions to be seen as a dire necessity if you are willing to render what assistance you can after the fact?

The difference as I see it is that the car accident is just that, an accident with no further threat of harm.
The perp on the other hand was trying to harm me already. That, and I would need both hands free to work on them, thus vulnerable to possibly that person or others I may not know about.
As to morals, I would want to save a life, but the risk may be too great. The same applies to fire rescue. We have to consider if the risk is worth the reward. Cold but hard fact.
I'm coming to the belief that there is no one answer here.
It "depends"...

 

[Buford57]

The difference as I see it is that the car accident is just that, an accident with no further threat of harm.
The perp on the other hand was trying to harm me already. That, and I would need both hands free to work on them, thus vulnerable to possibly that person or others I may not know about.
As to morals, I would want to save a life, but the risk may be too great. The same applies to fire rescue. We have to consider if the risk is worth the reward. Cold but hard fact.
I'm coming to the belief that there is no one answer here.
It "depends"...

This is the beginning of wisdom, Grasshopper.

 

[Old cop]

It could be dangerous to get too close to the person you just shot. Difficult to judge the extent of his/her injury and they may be faking just to get you closer. Sorry to sound so crass & uncaring but your duty is to call the police and stay safe until they arrive. Most jurisdictions will send rescue to the scene of a shooting anyway.

 

[Retired Chief]

Robert Walsh is absolutely correct. Your question revolves on State Law. Without having any idea of what your state laws are concerning EMTs and rendering aid while off duty, or what your state laws are concerning civilians in a crime scene, etc. none of us can provide you with an answer you can rely on. That said, my answer is to get the state-wide EMT association or fire chief's association or your local legislator to ask the Attorney General for an opinion. AG opinions are usually well researched and well reasoned and carry influence with the courts because of that.

 

[model70hunter]

I have read o life saving assistance being given to shooters. Do not kow the circumstances but feel LE was there.

Several gave advice I would follow. Go to your EMT management group and ask if they have guidelines, after a probable blank face ask if you can make an appointment with the local prosecutor or have your boss set up a short meeting so all can ask questions and hear the same answer.

Under most state good samaritan laws if you give assistance one is give some protection from a lawsuit. But those that say the family could come back on you are right too. They want paid for poor parenting.

Most combat medics carried a weapon for protection. If they used them I'm sure they prioritized care afterwards. My older cousin was an AF Medic in Nam, he was in a chopper that went down from gun fire, he had to defend himself, his 1st aid was applied to himself, multiple wounds and the pilots.

A guy I went to HS with was an Army medic, same scenario except he was not wounded. Those that shot us did not get any attention. Why, going to help was very dangerous.

They never lost any sleep over not helping, the chopper crashing, the gun fight and wounds has residual effects.

One hears about it, but my 1st day as an LE I gave a shooting considerable thought. If one does it by the book one is covered.

Find out what your Prosecuting attorney has to say. Perhaps the state attorney general. Perhaps contact an LE in a large city to see if this has happened.

To me this is the bottom line, I read your concern, I was never in a shoot out, close quite a few times but thankfully not, DO NOT LET YOUR CONCERN IMPACT YOU IF IT HAPPENS. Practice what you expect, do it enough that you can do it quickly and efficiently. Your focus to shoot center mass 1st is critical.

But you need to instantly know if you have an exit or retreat. One needs to be aware of your surroundings and oh so observant.

I have seen many things shot, it is not like the movies so wipe all of that trash from your mind. There can be lots of flopping, a deer or elk that is heart shot with a large cal rifle can live for several minutes and can run for generally 40-80 yards before bleeding out.Go look at some African Lion or Buffalo hunts on youtube. This is what one can expect.

I've been there with the drugged up, hyped up and adrenaline pumped folks who did not want to be arrested. If one was shot and it was not a true center mass with the old FBI T shot they can be dangerous for minutes or longer. If armed they are deadly dangerous, your only obligation is to protect yourself and get home to your loved ones, alive.

With all that said every incident can be slightly different. I've had guns, knives and clubs pulled on me and they wanted to do me harm. I reacted differently on each. I walked away from all unharmed by using my best weapon, my brain and it's programming, the training I did.

If a shooting occurs and you reacted correctly, if you fear for your or your partners life your safety comes first, do not put yourself in danger. And I think you will find out as I did when I asked that was the bottom line, do not put ones self in danger.

Hope you get a good legal response and please post your personal area answer here which may not be valid for all states.

Take care,
Duane.

 

[686-380]

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Logan police identify suspect who exchanged gunfire with EMT, prompted SWAT standoff
POSTED 2:56 PM, DECEMBER 16, 2015, BY MARK GREEN, UPDATED AT 03:20PM, DECEMBER 16, 2015
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SWAT
LEWISTON, Utah — The day after a car crash led to a shooting and ensuing SWAT standoff that shut down U.S. 91 for several hours, police have identified the suspect who was shot as well as the first responder who is believed to have exchanged gunfire with the man.

According to the Logan City Police Department, things began around 12:45 p.m. Tuesday when an erratic driver crashed on Highway 91 and ruptured a large natural gas line.

The driver of that vehicle has now been identified as 30-year-old Cade M. Austin of Preston, Idaho, and police stated that when emergency medical responders approached the vehicle Austin was not cooperative and pointed a firearm at the EMTs who were responding.

Assistant Fire Chief Jeremy Hunt, Smithfield City Fire Department, was present, and the man is also a Utah concealed weapon licensee and a reserve police officer with North Park Police Department, according to the press release.

The press release states: “He was carrying a firearm at the time of the incident. Logan City Detectives and State Crime lab technicians are still piecing together the sequence of events, but it is believed there was an exchange of gun fire, followed by a rapid retreat of all personnel to positions of cover.”

A stand-off then ensued, as Austin remained in his car. He appeared to be wounded in the exchange of gunfire, but the release states the man continued to wave what appeared to be a gun and that the natural gas being expelled made the situation more dangerous.

SWAT personnel from Cache County and Logan City responded, and about an hour into the stand-off Austin appeared to fall unconscious. He was subsequently taken to a Logan area hospital, and from there he was flown by medical helicopter to a facility in Ogden. Police stated Tuesday the man suffered at least one gunshot wound.

Wednesday, the man was listed as being in good condition at Ogden Regional Medical Center.

Police in Logan said that, while Hunt is a reserve police officer, because Hunt was not working in that capacity but rather as a medical responder at the time, the incident is not being investigated as an officer-involved shooting.