Responsibility regarding concealed carry

[atheophilos]

How do you guys deal with the responsibility regarding concealed carry? Not so much the responsibility to protect yourself or your family but the responsibility to protect an innocent person or persons. I think it is the responsibility that comes along with concealed carry and the potential consequences that may come if I am forced to use my firearm that is my greatest reservation.

 

[kwselke]

If you question when and how you would use the weapon, you probably do not want to carry a weapon. There is no disgrace not carrying.

 

[Kanewpadle]

This has been discussed a few times and there are differing opinions.

I will help those that can't help themselves. But only on my terms. I won't help someone who won't help themselves or is unarmed because they hate guns or violence. They're on their own.

But to blindly intervene is foolish.

 

[KKECK5]

YA KNOW, that's a darn good question. Years ago when I was a police officer,it came as second nature. You didn't think much about it. You just reacted to the situation as it unfolded, sometimes right in front of you. NOW, i find myself thinking about what if. What if i walk into a store or gas station and there's an armed robbery in progress.( Don't think it doesn't happened. Think again), happened to me approx 40 years ago while i was on vacation and ran into a store for a bag of ice on the way to the beach. And i was unarmed....Nowadays my gut says do something, but my head says 'lawsuit' lawsuit'.....danger danger Will Robinson......knowing me i'd get involved. I'm like a old fire horse when he hears the bell.
what worries me, is that any hesitation on my part would make the situation go from bad to worse. That's what plays on my mind.

 

[atheophilos]

YA KNOW, that's a darn good question. Years ago when I was a police officer,it came as second nature. You didn't think much about it. You just reacted to the situation as it unfolded, sometimes right in front of you. NOW, i find myself thinking about what if. What if i walk into a store or gas station and there's an armed robbery in progress.( Don't think it doesn't happened. Think again), happened to me approx 40 years ago while i was on vacation and ran into a store for a bag of ice on the way to the beach. And i was unarmed....Nowadays my gut says do something, but my head says 'lawsuit' lawsuit'.....danger danger Will Robinson......knowing me i'd get involved. I'm like a old fire horse when he hears the bell.
what worries me, is that any hesitation on my part would make the situation go from bad to worse. That's what plays on my mind.

Thank you, this is exactly what I am wrestling with. I would also be like that old fire horse charging to help. With no way to help I would do my best to get out of the situation but with the ability to help I would feel some responsibility. Just wanting to hear how others balance this.

 

[M29since14]

Not so much the responsibility to protect yourself or your family but the responsibility to protect an innocent person or persons. I think it is the responsibility that comes along with concealed carry...

In Indiana it used to be that there was no legal duty to defend another - unless you were deputized or "ordered to assist," possibly only by the sheriff. I don't know if any other sworn officer had the power to order a citizen to "assist."

That was some time ago and I am not sure if Indiana code is different now. Of course that would not address any moral duty you might feel.

In this day and age, it would be a tough call, and as KKECK5 says, hesitation could be a fatal error. Better check your state law(s) on this.

 

[Clovishound]

Well, every situation is different. I fully agree that one cannot just barge into a situation without knowing what is really going on. Appearances can often be deceiving.

Having said that, I don't think I could stand by and watch a true innocent being harmed, if I thought I had a good chance of stopping it.

One must always consider what their actions will do. Sometimes the best course is to just keep your cool, and let things play out on their own. When you pull your weapon, you immediately up the ante. This can often precipitate a much higher level of violence. This can result in innocents, or yourself being injured or worse. Sometimes, effective use of your weapon can prevent bad things from happening. Of course, one can never completely accurately predict what their action will do, but you must try and keep the likely result keep in mind. BLINDLY pulling your weapon and opening fire on the bad guy is not always the best option IMO.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Thank you, this is exactly what I am wrestling with. I would also be like that old fire horse charging to help. With no way to help I would do my best to get out of the situation but with the ability to help I would feel some responsibility. Just wanting to hear how others balance this.

This will be something you will always wrestle with. Don't get hung up on it. Self preservation is first and foremost. But there may come a time when you may feel compelled to help another. It's in our nature as humans and as men to do so. So instead of racking your brain over it just remember to approach each and every situation with caution and think things through.

What you SEE may not be what is happening. What you THINK, may not be.

The most important thing is to be flexible in your thinking and have the ability to think and act quickly. Under stress, some people can handle it and some cannot.

 

[adwjc]

atheophilos, kanewpaddle said it very well.

What you perceive may not be what is really happening.

The sight of some woman being slapped around can result in a powerful, emotional response on your part. Unfortunately, your help may not be welcome, Worse, you could be attacked by the "victim."

It is a common occurrence for police to be summoned by some aggrieved party (in a Domestic Violence Situation) and then turn on them when they try to remove the offender.

If some one says "help me!" that's a different story. Offer to call 9-1-1. If you have someone with you, perhaps a cellphone could record the situation .

 

[Smoke]

IMO this is one of those topics that is so broad and so grey that it's almost impossible to give an intelligent answer to.

I will say that if I happened to be caught in the middle of a robbery; unless I saw behavior by the robber that was indicative that he intended to kill all the witnesses I would be very likely to be as observant as possible but not directly involve myself.

There was an incident in Miami several years ago in which a permit holder attempted to intervene in a robbery at a Burger King and got shot up by the robber. The guy ended up in ICU for a while and had to have surgery and I'm sure spent some time in rehab and physical therapy afterwards. I'm also certain he lost quite a bit of time from work. To my knowledge BK distanced themselves, disavowed any responsibility for the guy's actions and didn't pay one dime towards the guy's medical expenses or lost wages.

I'd be willing to bet the guy is still in debt over it and is still suffering medical issues as the result of the shooting.

On that level I don't see that it would be worth it for me to try to defend Burger King's (insured) cash register.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

One thing you can do is read up on your state laws.

In addition to self defense, Tenn also has a Good Samaritan Protection Act. Tenn provides "Absolute Immunity" from civil liabilities as a result of any property damage or bodily injury, including death of the perp in such cases (listed below.) Though, that does not include any innocent bystanders.

(1) Any criminal homicide,
(2) Aggravated rape,
(3) Kidnapping,
(4) Aggravated kidnapping,
(5) Especially aggravated kidnapping, (6) Especially aggravated burglary, (7) Aggravated robbery,
(8) Especially aggravated robbery,
(9) Carjacking, and
(10)Attempt to commit first or second degree
murder.

Whether or not I would engage is a near impossible question to answer due to an endless list of potential variables.

 

[Old cop]

Mass Ayoob wrote a book about this very thing some time ago and I cannot recall the title but it's worth reading. It contains a lot of info, albeit dated, that us cops know but no one else really does. Do a Google search and get a copy. I loaned my copy out to somebody and never got it back, no good deed goes unpunished.

That said I'm low key and mind my own business. At 67 I'm not the man I once was and am no hero. I'll make a good witness and will call 911 if necessary, but I'll not try and thwart a crime in progress. That gun is a last ditch tool only employed when you cannot otherwise get yourself to safety.

 

[S&W45Colt]

Old Cop makes a good point and I've got an axiom for you I'll guarantee you he and everyone who's ever worn a badge knows by heart, that is, "the jury has days, maybe weeks to critique the split second decision you make." Meaning you'd better be sure what of what you are doing and if you are not, do not act.

There is no rule of thumb on when to act, there are too many situations and variables. As ChattanoogaPhil said, it starts with knowing your local laws then add in your abilities and your accurate assessment of the situation.

The abilities thing is crucial as well, to quote Clint, "a man's got to know his limitations." That one liner was dead on anyway.

 

[atheophilos]

Mass Ayoob wrote a book about this very thing some time ago and I cannot recall the title but it's worth reading. It contains a lot of info, albeit dated, that us cops know but no one else really does.

I googled for this book. I believe you are talking about this book...The Truth About Self Protection. Thanks for the info.

 

[venomballistics]

yeah ... I'd step up to the plate provided I saw the whole thing unfold rather than happen upon something that only looked wrong.
things are not always as they seem.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Not so much the responsibility to protect yourself or your family but the responsibility to protect an innocent person or persons.

You have no responsibility to protect anyone else. But I always wonder about the number of guys who say they won't in a forum full of self-professed type-A manly men. In my opinion, you're not much of a man if you have the opportunity and means to help someone else and you don't. No problem if you choose not to, just don't post any pictures of the three pound cheeseburgers you eat next to a rocks class of premium whiskey with your favorite safe queen guns and knives....Only manly men can do that. If you would pass up the chance to pull someone's bacon out of the fire because you're afraid of being sued or criminally charged, you may be anatomically a man but that's as far as it goes. I sometimes like to think I wouldn't get involved, but I know I would.

If you don't know WHEN to get involved, you maybe shouldn't be carrying a gun....

YA KNOW, that's a darn good question. Years ago when I was a police officer,it came as second nature. You didn't think much about it. You just reacted to the situation as it unfolded, sometimes right in front of you.

And that's the difference between doing it for a living and reading about those who do it for a living and taking a trip to Gunsight.......

 

[NorthCountry]

I googled for this book. I believe you are talking about this book...The Truth About Self Protection. Thanks for the info.

I finished reading "In The Gravest Extreme" again, just yesterday. Not sure if this is the book OldCop is referring to, but figured I'd throw it out there. It is one of Massad's older books, but it is just a relevant now as it was when he wrote it in 1980.

 

[Old cop]

"In the Gravest Extreme" is the Ayoob book everyone should read.

 

[BaaBaa]

"In the Gravest Extreme" is the Ayoob book everyone should read.

I just wish it was avail. on kindle. I wrote and asked but was told by MA that he doesn't own the rights to distribute it, it has to come from the publisher.

 

[WR Moore]

Besides "In the Gravest Extreme", go to Evan Marshalls 'Stopping Power' forum and read his comments on The Dangers of Intervention.