New S & W PC Model 41 22 Disaster!!!

[Tabby Lynn]

All good points made regarding the failure of Smith and Wesson to make a decent product, but I have to add to the conversation.

While a Pardini or Walther may be a better pistol they are also more expensive than a Smith and Wesson. Sometimes by a $1,000.00 dollars or more. You can still buy a Smith and Wesson for much less than MSRP. Most if not all of your top end foreign guns only sell at MSRP because that's what the factory wants. Then you have to deal with parts availability for foreign made firearms which can be a nightmare by itself. CZ really has the market cornered on parts availability to the small guy. Remember too that most of your top level shooters are factory sponsored and are treated quite well and are literally given firearms that are tuned to the highest level. They are NOT buying their equipment at the local gun store! Ask many if not all of the factory sponsored shooters when the last time was they actually paid for a pistol, rifle or shotgun. It's a sad joke for normal people to assume they are getting the same quality as a factory shooter, they are not.

Now in regards to the High Standard pistols so often spoken of. I have never seen one of these pistols let alone shot one. They may be fine pistols but if I can't, at a minimum, hold one I certainly will not go out on a limb and order one. Long ago I held and perhaps shot an old High Standard but it is not an event I remember. I like the feel of a S&W M-41, but not Colt Woodsman's nor High Standards. A top end Pardini pistol or Walther is non-existent in my world only to be seen in pictures.

Perhaps if I had some clout I could get into the SHOT show and personally see and hold some of these wonderful items and MAYBE even shoot some, but alas, I am but a commoner who likes M-41's because that's what is available to me and it's what I can afford. So don't ask when the last time was that someone finished on top of the winners list with a M-41. Ask instead when Pardini or Walther is going to make at quality target pistol that is at the same street price as a M-41. Or ask when is High Standard going to float a few of their pistols to local firearms dealers so we can at least see and hold them? And while I am sure Volquartson makes a terrific pistol, it just has no appeal to me in current form and is really a very well tricked out Ruger.

Rick H.

While a bit off subject here, I find it interesting that someone would go out and spend thousands of dollars for a firearm, either rifle or pistol so they can shoot little tiny groups, when the same can be achieved with many factory out of the box firearms. I currently have two competition-grade handguns, a S&W Model 41, and a Colt Gold Cup National Match. Both are capable of shooting better than I can. They are also the most expensive out of the box firearms that I own. The question is, are there any firearms out there that shoot better than these two? Not that I have found. Many shoot as well, but none better. After all tiny groups can be attained by a lot of handguns, and one hole groups by many out of the box rifles. Then again there are many firearms that cost a small fortune that are touted to be the best that don't shoot worth a darn. My advice as a NRA instructor is simply to find a handgun that shoots as well or better than you can. And stick with it. After all, its what happens at the target than counts, not how much you paid or how much the brand name cost.

 

[Jimbo41]

Love the look of the High Standards, but have never fired one. Going to lunch today with a guy that owns a bunch of them, so maybe soon.

 

[Dave Haynes]

I've had HS pistols, Colt Woodsmans, the 60s vintage 41s are hardly "Plinkers". The fact that S&W has cast the customer adrift has nothing to do with what the company made in the past. They were the tip of the arrow for many decades. Gun snobs tend to talk down what the peasants can afford or use. The Ruger standards were a great pistol for a lot of folks at $37. It is not as much about the pistol as it is the guy shooting it. Believe me, I know that using the best doesn't mean anything when the user isn't talented.

 

[Tom S.]

While a bit off subject here, I find it interesting that someone would go out and spend thousands of dollars for a firearm, either rifle or pistol so they can shoot little tiny groups, when the same can be achieved with many factory out of the box firearms. I currently have two competition-grade handguns, a S&W Model 41, and a Colt Gold Cup National Match. Both are capable of shooting better than I can. They are also the most expensive out of the box firearms that I own. The question is, are there any firearms out there that shoot better than these two? Not that I have found. Many shoot as well, but none better. After all tiny groups can be attained by a lot of handguns, and one hole groups by many out of the box rifles. Then again there are many firearms that cost a small fortune that are touted to be the best that don't shoot worth a darn. My advice as a NRA instructor is simply to find a handgun that shoots as well or better than you can. And stick with it. After all, its what happens at the target than counts, not how much you paid or how much the brand name cost.

In my younger days, I sought a gun that was capable of outshooting me. As I got older, that was no longer an issue.

 

[malph]

In my younger days, I sought a gun that was capable of outshooting me. As I got older, that was no longer an issue.

It's the sad truth for a lot of us.

 

[malph]

I've had HS pistols, Colt Woodsmans, the 60s vintage 41s are hardly "Plinkers". The fact that S&W has cast the customer adrift has nothing to do with what the company made in the past. They were the tip of the arrow for many decades. Gun snobs tend to talk down what the peasants can afford or use. The Ruger standards were a great pistol for a lot of folks at $37. It is not as much about the pistol as it is the guy shooting it. Believe me, I know that using the best doesn't mean anything when the user isn't talented.

A well built/tuned 41 gives up nothing to the Pardinis and Walthers accuracy wise.

A good 41 will keep them in the X ring at 50 yards if the shooter can.

It's the ergonomics and adjustability of guns like the Pardini that give them an edge, not it's inherent accuracy.

Unfortunately, precision pistol shooting (bullseye) is not as popular as it once was.

I keep predicting it will make a comeback when the folks competing in USPSA get tired of or begin to realize they can't run around anymore.

 

[sceva]

I had a High Standard Citation ( military grip) in the past - around 2005. It was nice, accurate and heavy. They are also magazine sensitive, harder on recoil springs and subject to frame cracks in the military grip models. I sold the High Standard and after a while I bought a new ( to me ) 1973 vintage ( with cocked indicator pin) Mod 41 5" heavy barrel. It is also nice, accurate and heavy but I like it better and it works perfectly with all three magazines that came with it. It used to be that the Mod 41 was one of S&W's showcase pistols and was treated as such when building them. If I was looking for a Mod 41 today I would look for an older one in good condition; they are still out there and I for one feel they are a better pistol than the newer ones.0

 

[malph]

It used to be that the Mod 41 was one of S&W's showcase pistols and was treated as such when building them.

Exactly this!

 

[AveragEd]

I have posted this story before but it fits its in this thread too. I bought a new 7" Model 41 a couple of years ago and the slide would not return to battery when the gun was fired so I sent it back. When it was returned a month later (which I was happy with), they supposedly test-fired it without experiencing the condition. On my first shot , and I used CCI SV ammunition as they recommend, the slide stopped three-quarters of the way forward.

I took it to my gunsmith, who confessed to not exactly being Model 41 savvy (he's mainly a rifle guy), but he felt the slide was excessively difficult to cycle so he removed the slide and a small straightedge indicated high spots on the rails. He reinstalled the slide and cycled it back and forth by hand for about five minutes and we went outside to test-fire it. Even with lower-velocity match ammo, Lapua Center-X, it worked flawlessly.

I really like the Smith & Wesson products I own - about 20 pre-2000 revolvers, a Model 22A-1 and the Model 41 - but I don't think I would be in a hurry to buy another newly-manufactured piece. Between the product problems and the lack of skilled craftsmen to repair them, it's a sad day for S&W.

Ed

 

[bobsguns]

All good points made regarding the failure of Smith and Wesson to make a decent product, but I have to add to the conversation.

While a Pardini or Walther may be a better pistol they are also more expensive than a Smith and Wesson.

A quick glance on GB shows a Walther .22LR, NIB.




Now, a current Model 41.





Notice anything contradictory to your statement? Both are in the "buy now" section, not a bidding post, FWIW.

 

[bobsguns]

Unfortunately, precision pistol shooting (bullseye) is not as popular as it once was.

I keep predicting it will make a comeback when the folks competing in USPSA get tired of or begin to realize they can't run around anymore.

I would offer as an excellent alternative a steel plate match. Most have minimal movement, some are totally static for position.

As an added bonus, there is growth in the rimfire handgun category. Double bonus is rimfire ammo is a whole lot more affordable over 9mm.

 

[bobsguns]

I really like the Smith & Wesson products I own - about 20 pre-2000 revolvers, a Model 22A-1 and the Model 41 - but I don't think I would be in a hurry to buy another newly-manufactured piece.

I too have a 22A-1 with the target grips. Mine is crazy accurate with cheap Blazer ammo. Were I King of S&W, and the 41 was being dropped, I would offer the 22A-1 as an excellent replacement AND it's AFFORDABLE to the average Joe!

For those who may be unfamiliar of it, here's a stock pic:

 

[saki302]

As much as I like my classic M41, my walther gsp shoots circles around it.. and more reliably vs the 5" barrel. My m41 works great with a 7" barrel though.

 

[Rick H.]

Yep Bob, I did notice something. I did not pay $2,199.00 for my NIB PC M-41. I paid much less for mine. I think with tax, background check and shipping on my latest M-41 it was a shade over $1,905.00. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Very gracious of you I might add. Depending on your wallet size I look at the all inclusive price of $1,905.00 as a sizeable savings compared to $2,199.00. Does the $2,199.00 price include tax, shipping and background check?

To be honest with you, there was another supposedly NIB PC M-41 on Gunbroker where the seller was asking something just over $1,600.00. I thought that it was a buy-it-now price, but perhaps not. No one else on GB or Gunsinternational was near that price at the time I was looking. I tend to shy away from the lowest prices as I don't want to get scammed, so I talked to my dealer who got me what I thought was a decent price on the pistol. Was it $1,600 dollars? No, but I was happy with his price. Wherever he got my pistol from only had two in stock at the time and they didn't know if they would get anymore.

Looking at Pardini prices is something I don't normally do, but at Champions Choice I did not see one Pardini listed for under $3K. I am not familiar with the Pardini line of pistols so I don't know what they have that compares with a M-41. I do know M-41 prices though and I thought I got a decent price on mine. Is the Pardini a better pistol? Perhaps. Can I readily get parts for a Pardini? I somehow don't think so, but I wouldn't even want to chance it. Where does one go for warranty or repair work on a Pardini if needed?

So thanks again Bob for pointing out my discrepancy.

Rick H.

 

[GUNSAFETY4U]

My first .22 Bullseye pistol was a HS Victor purchased in 1983. Great gun, 30,000 rounds through it. In 1993, bought a new 5" m41. Since then, second 5" OEM barrel mod for red dot and a custom 5" Clark Barrel mod for red dot. Use a 2MOA Kahles Helia (made at Tokyo Scope , same as C-more and Sig Romeo 3). Clocked 130,000 rounds last year. Had Clark hard Chrome it when I moved to FL. I use it to train students when I need a "can't miss" gun. Always buffered, eats SV - Aguila, CCI, GTag, all Eley, Wolf, Lapua, Geco, RWS, Fed Automatch and Gold. Only repair has been New Slide Stop & Spring, 2024. Still runs like a sewing machine. Slide is a bit slow for SCSA, I use an X-esse IPSC for that. They are peers. Have had Mk1, Mk4-22/25 lite, GSP, Benelli... all were fine, not as shootable for range work as m41.

 

[Jerry in SC]

@Rick H.

The only comparable Walther would be the newish CSP, they're $1600 give or take depending on configuration. They are marketed by Walther as a beginners target pistol, they are quite light, about 30 ounces. It has a plastic magazine. I think there's only one facility for repair in the US, Earl's Repair Service.

 

[malph]

@Rick H.

The only comparable Walther would be the newish CSP, they're $1600 give or take depending on configuration. They are marketed by Walther as a beginners target pistol, they are quite light, about 30 ounces. It has a plastic magazine. I think there's only one facility for repair in the US, Earl's Repair Service.

I don't think Earl is importing them unless something changed just recently.

Champions Choice is importing them.

I assume that means Champions Choice is also supporting them but that is admittedly a guess.

Walther in German was pushing Walther USA in Arkansas to bring them in but for whatever that seems slow to happen.

 

[Tom S.]

As much as I like my classic M41, my walther gsp shoots circles around it.. and more reliably vs the 5" barrel. My m41 works great with a 7" barrel though.

Well, if it shoots circles around it, that means the gsp shoots a much larger group!

 

[Jerry in SC]

I don't think Earl is importing them unless something changed just recently.

Champions Choice is importing them.

I assume that means Champions Choice is also supporting them but that is admittedly a guess.

Walther in German was pushing Walther USA in Arkansas to bring them in but for whatever that seems slow to happen.

Earl's is not importing them. Oberle Enterprises in Colorado imports the Walther CSP and other Walther target firearms. If there are any others besides Champion's Choice I'm not aware of them.

To the best of my knowledge, Champion's Choice doesn't offer repair for any firearms that they sell.

The CSP looks like an upgraded X-esse. Walther claims they are not the same.

 

[jjdoodah]

When I was in the work force, as a tradesperson, we had what is referred to as an Apprenticeship Program! This program took in applicants and sent them to classroom lectures and had them work alongside an experienced leader, called a Journeyman. The apprentice worked with the journeyman preforming the same task but at a much-reduced rate of pay. This system worked very well maintaining a knowledgeable work force over a long period of time! Enter the bean counters! The shortsighted bean counters saw the company was paying two people to perform the work of one and many times at a reduced rate of production. The bean counters solution, offer the journeyman early retirement. The company ended up with a person doing the same job and cut the cost by more than half! The results are what we see today in QC! When a product is returned for warranty work there is a good chance the product will end up in the hands of the person that create the problem! The question is, can this person diagnose the problem and repair it?

I bought a new S&W Performance Center model 41 from a dealer. The trigger guard would not budge for break down, the safety was stuck, the slide would not budge, the only thing that worked was the mag release. Obviously was never able to fire it. Smith was very nice and said send it back which I did.

Got it back and everything worked, I was thrilled. Fired one magazine and now everything is locked up again like before. I'm soured to say the least. I want them to replace it it, is that fair? How does a gun that will not function get out the door of the Performance Center? I own dozens of older Smith revolvers they are flawless. What say you?

I had a similar "freeze" problem with my '79 Hi-Std. Victor. The slide wouldn't retract or I couldn't depress the break-down button. Finally, a block of wood and a tap to the button, and it came loose. I guess being virtually unfired, the oil had hardened.
I prefer the S&W Mod 41 (7 3/8) much better, or at least it's more accurate for me. Since the '70s, I've had all 3 of the 41 models, and like the long barrel the best. My present one is a'71 mfg.

 

[mjpdkp]

I've had HS pistols, Colt Woodsmans, the 60s vintage 41s are hardly "Plinkers". The fact that S&W has cast the customer adrift has nothing to do with what the company made in the past. They were the tip of the arrow for many decades. Gun snobs tend to talk down what the peasants can afford or use. The Ruger standards were a great pistol for a lot of folks at $37. It is not as much about the pistol as it is the guy shooting it. Believe me, I know that using the best doesn't mean anything when the user isn't talented.

 

[Model19man]

I find that there are lot of very reasonable 22's available. Back in the 1980's I bought a Ruger Mk III pistol in 4" that was a tack driver. I looked on Guns International, there are Walther's that come in .22 that sell for around $240 NIB. Maybe you should look into one of those?

 

[Yendor357]

It seems like I read somewhere that if an open ended recoil spring was put on backwards, it would lock up the slide like you described.

 

[Tom S.]

It seems like I read somewhere that if an open ended recoil spring was put on backwards, it would lock up the slide like you described.

https://smith-wessonforum.com/threa...en-changing-recoil-spring-on-model-41.583065/

 

[GUNSAFETY4U]

@Rick H.

The only comparable Walther would be the newish CSP, they're $1600 give or take depending on configuration. They are marketed by Walther as a beginners target pistol, they are quite light, about 30 ounces. It has a plastic magazine. I think there's only one facility for repair in the US, Earl's Repair Service.

Earl has been a trading partner of mine since I got my NYS gunsmith license in 1982. Earl has reach in Waltherland second to no other. Better than Ft Smith. Olympic eqpt., second or third top sets for Q5, Q5SF, PPQ, X-esse, Rifles, you name it. Earl Sheehan is a Diamond in the coal field. You are in good hands.

 

[Rick H.]

I am not sure where this "conversation" leads us, but clearly the waters get real muddy when comparing Walther and Smith and Wesson let alone Pardini's. None of this at all helps the OP with his problem. The only Walthers I have owned were older PPK's that I carried as supplemental weapons and off-duty guns. They worked okay, but very inaccurate for my standards with a double action trigger pull that was insanely heavy. Unfortunately PPK's were about the only dance in town at the time, unless you wanted a J-frame revolver. I also disliked the fact the PPK did not have a slide lock lever. I never had one of the three I owned break so I guess that was a plus.

When I heard Walther was opening up an American plant I thought great maybe they will refine the PPK series a bit, but they did not. In fact it took them a long time to actually make a PPK style pistol, but it was just like the others.

I am not a gunsmith, just an old retired LEO that has been around and worked with firearms all my life. I would love to actually see the OP's M-41 or at a minimum a video of it in its present condition. There is something grossly wrong with it. Two areas of the M-41 that always seem to come up as problems is the slide lock/ejector and the safety mechanism. One my first PC M-41 the problem was the slide lock. S&W replaced it and has has been good ever since. However on that pistol and the second one I just bought the safety levers are extremely touchy. Any movement at all towards on-safe disables the pistol, but as long as I keep my hand away from that lever the pistols work fine. If that lever moves at all I hear and feel a click from the pistol when I pull the trigger, but no bang from the round going off. I then have to retract the slide to re-cock the hammer and make sure the lever is off-safe. Of course that re-cock action via the slide ejects the round in the chamber. Not a deal breaker for me, just a pain now and then.

I can't tell for sure if either of these two areas play into the OP's issue, but it would be interesting to investigate this. Regarding the stiff trigger guard this is an area that has come up in conversation for years. What is too tight and what is too loose? On my 1st PC pistol the trigger guard was real tight, but I would rather have it tight than loose. I worked the daylights out of that trigger guard to free it up a bit. Eventually I put a pair of gloves on to avoid bleeding fingers. I also put some good heavy grease in the barrel tenon notch where the cam makes contact with it and this helped a great deal. I once heard that factory guys would use a rubber mallet to snap the trigger guard into place on stubborn pistols. I don't recommend that, but that was the rumor. Similar claims were made with stubborn M-1 Garand and M-14 trigger guards. Who knows where the truth really is?

Rick H.

 

[teletech]

As much as I like my classic M41, my walther gsp shoots circles around it.. and more reliably vs the 5" barrel. My m41 works great with a 7" barrel though.

My GSP was faster and more reliable, but I never warmed to it like I did to the 41. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed the 7" being more reliable than the 5". I found the GSP *slightly* more accurate than the 41, but only with snooty ammo, where my 41 loves Federal automatch and shoots it better than ammo costing 4x+.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

My GSP was faster and more reliable, but I never warmed to it like I did to the 41. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed the 7" being more reliable than the 5". I found the GSP *slightly* more accurate than the 41, but only with snooty ammo, where my 41 loves Federal automatch and shoots it better than ammo costing 4x+.

Well, argue all you want. I have been shooting a 41 for many years with all kinds of ammo. It is highly accurate and not as fussy about ammo as some of the others that you brag about.

 

[Rick H.]

My question is, what would make the 7" M-41 barrel more reliable? Slightly more velocity? I know the longer barrel length helps with the accuracy a bit using open sights, but sight radius matters not using an optic. I find the PC 5.5" inch barrel to be much more controllable in actual target shooting use. For me its just a personal thing on the barrel length with a M-41. Surprisingly the PC M-41 is lighter than the other two standard models.

Rick H.

 

[teletech]

My question is, what would make the 7" M-41 barrel more reliable? Slightly more velocity? I know the longer barrel length helps with the accuracy a bit using open sights, but sight radius matters not using an optic. I find the PC 5.5" inch barrel to be much more controllable in actual target shooting use. For me its just a personal thing on the barrel length with a M-41. Surprisingly the PC M-41 is lighter than the other two standard models.

Rick H.

The increased length means more lever arm, so less 'flip' which would tend to help things stay put and work, but the longer barrel makes for a longer gas column which will have a longer and stronger recoil impulse. I suspect it's the second factor that makes the difference.