New S & W PC Model 41 22 Disaster!!!

[chief38]

I recently returned a 625, when they test fired the gun, put 6 rounds in and test fired the gun. Apparently the tech didn't have moonclips, when he went to push out the spent shells he used a sharp edged tool, because he dinged the edge of every charge hole. I called S&W to express my thoughts. She asked would I like to send it back for evaluation.

Hell no.

I tend to agree! They might polish the scratches out and do who knows what!! Better off just living with a few minor scratches - even though it's wrong & frustrating to say the least! All in all, a very bad situation!

 

[Oldsalt66]

When I had similar recurring problems with a very early production sample E Series 1911TA, after sending it back three times to S&W (they had FeEx pick it up from, and return it to my home at their expense), I wrote a respectful and detailed letter and some photos along with a link to a respected 1911 forum in which I documented the situation with pictures, directly to the company president who IIRC was, at the time Richard Debney.

Almost immediately on receipt of my letter I was informed that I was being sent a replacement pistol which, because I'm in Florida, needed to be transferred through an FFL.

Contact the top guy directly; the service reps will be upset, but so what?

Good luck.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

Yes, but I take issue with Smith not training the next generation of workers.

They thought they didn't need to so they let the highly skilled retire without building up the next generation.

It takes planning and time to build that up and they didn't do it.

While it may seem simple to us, moving the entire corporation from Massachusetts to Tennessee is a monumental process. Old time workers retired, and probably did not make the move leaving a gap in the work force that is going to take some time. If you want to blame someone, blame the ****ty politics in Massachusetts that forced the move.

 

[malph]

While it may seem simple to us, moving the entire corporation from Massachusetts to Tennessee is a monumental process. Old time workers retired, and probably did not make the move leaving a gap in the work force that is going to take some time. If you want to blame someone, blame the ****ty politics in Massachusetts that forced the move.

Revolvers are still made in Massachusetts.

Model 41s are still made in Maine.

 

[bobsguns]

The big issue here is that finding competent people these days is extremely difficult. In Smith's defense, you cannot easily replace a craftsman with 20 or more years experience with someone right out of high school and expect the same quality work.

I don't recall anyone suggesting that.

Let's use my semi-local motorcycle dealership as an example. The lead mechanic is probably close to, or a bit past my age (66). Clearly, he's gonna eventually retire at some point. So the dealership hires some 20-something kid to bring in & learn from the old guy. Maybe the old guy has promised to stay 2-3 years more, I'm just guessing here. So he can mentor the kid, guide him through the rough spots, etc.

That scenario applies to almost anything one can think of: cops, medical fields, teaching, you name it.

My former gunsmith was a graduate of Colorado School of Trades, has a gunsmithing degree. Nothing stopped Smith from pulling in a young man or three from there, helping him get set-up with tools, housing, etc in exchange for x-amount of years in employment. But no, Smith was/is too blankety-blank cheap to do that. (To be fair, they're certainly not alone in that.)

I won't belabor the point, but there's a huge push to get young men back into the trades. College/academics isn't for everyone. I've seen carpenters & fabricators who could barely sign their own name, yet they could build things that would leave your jaw hanging open. Nor do they do these things for chump change. My bike dealership labor rate is around $150/hr. Obviously the dealership will take most of that for shop equipment investment, bldg expenses, etc. But the mechanic is gonna make a nice living, IMO.

The super, super sad part is, the kids I interact with in their early 20s now, they don't have a blankety-blank clue about working with their hands. Quite often, Dad wasn't around. Other times Dad didn't know how to do a tune-up or oil change, etc. Or build a deck, frame a door or re-wire a basement. Take your pick.

But it's bad/shortsighted planning by Smith, which was absolutely pushed by the MBA types/bean counters. This is what happens when a non-gun person runs a gun company.

I also strongly point out, H&K, CZ & a few others don't seem to have the warranty issues Smith does. Wonder WHY that is?

It reminds me of the arrogance of the late 1970s/early 1980s American car industry. It was like they thought, "Doesn't matter if we build crappy cars, the public will buy it because who else will they buy from?" Well, guess what, Sparky? The Japanese came in & kicked the auto industry's behind SO hard it took them decades to climb out of the basement. Some might say they're STILL there now that Korean cars are getting market share too.

I don't want it to happen, but it would not surprise me if Smith becomes a shell of its former self. The only thing Smith has keeping it going right now is revolver sales, IMO. Their semi's are no better than most of their competitors such as Canik. Smith's execs & their arrogance will ride them to the toilet, IMO.

My .o2

 

[bobsguns]

While it may seem simple to us, moving the entire corporation from Massachusetts to Tennessee is a monumental process. Old time workers retired, and probably did not make the move leaving a gap in the work force that is going to take some time. If you want to blame someone, blame the ****ty politics in Massachusetts that forced the move.

Uhmmmm, no.

Smith left their entire revolver production in Mass. HQ & semi production made the move to TN. Sig has a plant in NH. Aside from the P-320, they still make a darn good gun. FN has a plant in SC. In fact, they now have two. Steyr has a plant in Alabama. H&K is in GA. Beretta is in TN.

I would take any semi from those folks (except the P-320) over a Smith semi in a NY minute. With the exception of Beretta, none of them have anywhere NEAR the warranty issues Smith is having. An old military saying is, "show me a bad unit & I'll show you a failed commander." Smith is showing exceptionally bad leadership, IMO.

My .o2

 

[Tabby Lynn]

While your points are taken, there seems to be a large issue with the employment of millennials on up these days. Nobody want's to work or get their hands dirty, much less have to get up in the morning and actually go to a place of employment and for us old folk, who can remember the character Maynard G. Krebs (played by Bob Denver) a beatnik who got upset whenever the word or idea of , "WORK." was mentioned. That pretty much describes the current upcoming work force. These days nobody wants to hire these people since they don't want to actually work or do something productive, but want big bucks for doing little or nothing.

 

[6string]

I bought a new S&W Performance Center model 41 from a dealer. The trigger guard would not budge for break down, the safety was stuck, the slide would not budge, the only thing that worked was the mag release. Obviously was never able to fire it. Smith was very nice and said send it back which I did.

Got it back and everything worked, I was thrilled. Fired one magazine and now everything is locked up again like before. I'm soured to say the least. I want them to replace it it, is that fair? How does a gun that will not function get out the door of the Performance Center? I own dozens of older Smith revolvers they are flawless. What say you?

This may sound like a dumb question, and it's not meant to be critical, but if you got this from a dealer (ie: an in-person purchase) why did you buy it?
I would've certainly gone over it for a basic operational check of the action and any/all moving parts.

At this point, I would just want out of the whole mess, preferably by demanding a full refund.

There is a good reason the Model 41 is being dropped.
It's not a competitive target pistol by any means. Last time I heard one being used in a high profile International match was the 1984 Olympics when Ruby Fox shot one in Women's Sport Pistol. And, her gun was highly modified by Don Nygord.
Today, competitors use Pardini SP, Walther GSP, Feinwerkbau AW-93, etc.

If Model 41s were being delivered in a fully functioning condition they would best be considered as plinkers. But, they're too pricey to compete sales-wise with Ruger, Browning, etc.

If someone wants a "classic style" American made target .22 pistol, they might do better to consider a Volquartsen, or better yet, one of the new High Standards being made under the supervision of Alan Aronstein. They sell for about $1500 and are expertly crafted, inspected and tested before they deliver them!

 

[Rick H.]

All good points made regarding the failure of Smith and Wesson to make a decent product, but I have to add to the conversation.

While a Pardini or Walther may be a better pistol they are also more expensive than a Smith and Wesson. Sometimes by a $1,000.00 dollars or more. You can still buy a Smith and Wesson for much less than MSRP. Most if not all of your top end foreign guns only sell at MSRP because that's what the factory wants. Then you have to deal with parts availability for foreign made firearms which can be a nightmare by itself. CZ really has the market cornered on parts availability to the small guy. Remember too that most of your top level shooters are factory sponsored and are treated quite well and are literally given firearms that are tuned to the highest level. They are NOT buying their equipment at the local gun store! Ask many if not all of the factory sponsored shooters when the last time was they actually paid for a pistol, rifle or shotgun. It's a sad joke for normal people to assume they are getting the same quality as a factory shooter, they are not.

Now in regards to the High Standard pistols so often spoken of. I have never seen one of these pistols let alone shot one. They may be fine pistols but if I can't, at a minimum, hold one I certainly will not go out on a limb and order one. Long ago I held and perhaps shot an old High Standard but it is not an event I remember. I like the feel of a S&W M-41, but not Colt Woodsman's nor High Standards. A top end Pardini pistol or Walther is non-existent in my world only to be seen in pictures.

Perhaps if I had some clout I could get into the SHOT show and personally see and hold some of these wonderful items and MAYBE even shoot some, but alas, I am but a commoner who likes M-41's because that's what is available to me and it's what I can afford. So don't ask when the last time was that someone finished on top of the winners list with a M-41. Ask instead when Pardini or Walther is going to make at quality target pistol that is at the same street price as a M-41. Or ask when is High Standard going to float a few of their pistols to local firearms dealers so we can at least see and hold them? And while I am sure Volquartson makes a terrific pistol, it just has no appeal to me in current form and is really a very well tricked out Ruger.

Rick H.

 

[jcelect]

When I was in the work force, as a tradesperson, we had what is referred to as an Apprenticeship Program! This program took in applicants and sent them to classroom lectures and had them work alongside an experienced leader, called a Journeyman. The apprentice worked with the journeyman preforming the same task but at a much-reduced rate of pay. This system worked very well maintaining a knowledgeable work force over a long period of time! Enter the bean counters! The shortsighted bean counters saw the company was paying two people to perform the work of one and many times at a reduced rate of production. The bean counters solution, offer the journeyman early retirement. The company ended up with a person doing the same job and cut the cost by more than half! The results are what we see today in QC! When a product is returned for warranty work there is a good chance the product will end up in the hands of the person that create the problem! The question is, can this person diagnose the problem and repair it?

 

[Tabby Lynn]

All good points made regarding the failure of Smith and Wesson to make a decent product, but I have to add to the conversation.

While a Pardini or Walther may be a better pistol they are also more expensive than a Smith and Wesson. Sometimes by a $1,000.00 dollars or more. You can still buy a Smith and Wesson for much less than MSRP. Most if not all of your top end foreign guns only sell at MSRP because that's what the factory wants. Then you have to deal with parts availability for foreign made firearms which can be a nightmare by itself. CZ really has the market cornered on parts availability to the small guy. Remember too that most of your top level shooters are factory sponsored and are treated quite well and are literally given firearms that are tuned to the highest level. They are NOT buying their equipment at the local gun store! Ask many if not all of the factory sponsored shooters when the last time was they actually paid for a pistol, rifle or shotgun. It's a sad joke for normal people to assume they are getting the same quality as a factory shooter, they are not.

Now in regards to the High Standard pistols so often spoken of. I have never seen one of these pistols let alone shot one. They may be fine pistols but if I can't, at a minimum, hold one I certainly will not go out on a limb and order one. Long ago I held and perhaps shot an old High Standard but it is not an event I remember. I like the feel of a S&W M-41, but not Colt Woodsman's nor High Standards. A top end Pardini pistol or Walther is non-existent in my world only to be seen in pictures.

Perhaps if I had some clout I could get into the SHOT show and personally see and hold some of these wonderful items and MAYBE even shoot some, but alas, I am but a commoner who likes M-41's because that's what is available to me and it's what I can afford. So don't ask when the last time was that someone finished on top of the winners list with a M-41. Ask instead when Pardini or Walther is going to make at quality target pistol that is at the same street price as a M-41. Or ask when is High Standard going to float a few of their pistols to local firearms dealers so we can at least see and hold them? And while I am sure Volquartson makes a terrific pistol, it just has no appeal to me in current form and is really a very well tricked out Ruger.

Rick H.

While a bit off subject here, I find it interesting that someone would go out and spend thousands of dollars for a firearm, either rifle or pistol so they can shoot little tiny groups, when the same can be achieved with many factory out of the box firearms. I currently have two competition-grade handguns, a S&W Model 41, and a Colt Gold Cup National Match. Both are capable of shooting better than I can. They are also the most expensive out of the box firearms that I own. The question is, are there any firearms out there that shoot better than these two? Not that I have found. Many shoot as well, but none better. After all tiny groups can be attained by a lot of handguns, and one hole groups by many out of the box rifles. Then again there are many firearms that cost a small fortune that are touted to be the best that don't shoot worth a darn. My advice as a NRA instructor is simply to find a handgun that shoots as well or better than you can. And stick with it. After all, its what happens at the target than counts, not how much you paid or how much the brand name cost.

 

[Jimbo41]

Love the look of the High Standards, but have never fired one. Going to lunch today with a guy that owns a bunch of them, so maybe soon.

 

[Dave Haynes]

I've had HS pistols, Colt Woodsmans, the 60s vintage 41s are hardly "Plinkers". The fact that S&W has cast the customer adrift has nothing to do with what the company made in the past. They were the tip of the arrow for many decades. Gun snobs tend to talk down what the peasants can afford or use. The Ruger standards were a great pistol for a lot of folks at $37. It is not as much about the pistol as it is the guy shooting it. Believe me, I know that using the best doesn't mean anything when the user isn't talented.

 

[Tom S.]

While a bit off subject here, I find it interesting that someone would go out and spend thousands of dollars for a firearm, either rifle or pistol so they can shoot little tiny groups, when the same can be achieved with many factory out of the box firearms. I currently have two competition-grade handguns, a S&W Model 41, and a Colt Gold Cup National Match. Both are capable of shooting better than I can. They are also the most expensive out of the box firearms that I own. The question is, are there any firearms out there that shoot better than these two? Not that I have found. Many shoot as well, but none better. After all tiny groups can be attained by a lot of handguns, and one hole groups by many out of the box rifles. Then again there are many firearms that cost a small fortune that are touted to be the best that don't shoot worth a darn. My advice as a NRA instructor is simply to find a handgun that shoots as well or better than you can. And stick with it. After all, its what happens at the target than counts, not how much you paid or how much the brand name cost.

In my younger days, I sought a gun that was capable of outshooting me. As I got older, that was no longer an issue.

 

[malph]

In my younger days, I sought a gun that was capable of outshooting me. As I got older, that was no longer an issue.

It's the sad truth for a lot of us.

 

[malph]

I've had HS pistols, Colt Woodsmans, the 60s vintage 41s are hardly "Plinkers". The fact that S&W has cast the customer adrift has nothing to do with what the company made in the past. They were the tip of the arrow for many decades. Gun snobs tend to talk down what the peasants can afford or use. The Ruger standards were a great pistol for a lot of folks at $37. It is not as much about the pistol as it is the guy shooting it. Believe me, I know that using the best doesn't mean anything when the user isn't talented.

A well built/tuned 41 gives up nothing to the Pardinis and Walthers accuracy wise.

A good 41 will keep them in the X ring at 50 yards if the shooter can.

It's the ergonomics and adjustability of guns like the Pardini that give them an edge, not it's inherent accuracy.

Unfortunately, precision pistol shooting (bullseye) is not as popular as it once was.

I keep predicting it will make a comeback when the folks competing in USPSA get tired of or begin to realize they can't run around anymore.

 

[sceva]

I had a High Standard Citation ( military grip) in the past - around 2005. It was nice, accurate and heavy. They are also magazine sensitive, harder on recoil springs and subject to frame cracks in the military grip models. I sold the High Standard and after a while I bought a new ( to me ) 1973 vintage ( with cocked indicator pin) Mod 41 5" heavy barrel. It is also nice, accurate and heavy but I like it better and it works perfectly with all three magazines that came with it. It used to be that the Mod 41 was one of S&W's showcase pistols and was treated as such when building them. If I was looking for a Mod 41 today I would look for an older one in good condition; they are still out there and I for one feel they are a better pistol than the newer ones.0

 

[malph]

It used to be that the Mod 41 was one of S&W's showcase pistols and was treated as such when building them.

Exactly this!

 

[AveragEd]

I have posted this story before but it fits its in this thread too. I bought a new 7" Model 41 a couple of years ago and the slide would not return to battery when the gun was fired so I sent it back. When it was returned a month later (which I was happy with), they supposedly test-fired it without experiencing the condition. On my first shot , and I used CCI SV ammunition as they recommend, the slide stopped three-quarters of the way forward.

I took it to my gunsmith, who confessed to not exactly being Model 41 savvy (he's mainly a rifle guy), but he felt the slide was excessively difficult to cycle so he removed the slide and a small straightedge indicated high spots on the rails. He reinstalled the slide and cycled it back and forth by hand for about five minutes and we went outside to test-fire it. Even with lower-velocity match ammo, Lapua Center-X, it worked flawlessly.

I really like the Smith & Wesson products I own - about 20 pre-2000 revolvers, a Model 22A-1 and the Model 41 - but I don't think I would be in a hurry to buy another newly-manufactured piece. Between the product problems and the lack of skilled craftsmen to repair them, it's a sad day for S&W.

Ed

 

[bobsguns]

All good points made regarding the failure of Smith and Wesson to make a decent product, but I have to add to the conversation.

While a Pardini or Walther may be a better pistol they are also more expensive than a Smith and Wesson.

A quick glance on GB shows a Walther .22LR, NIB.




Now, a current Model 41.





Notice anything contradictory to your statement? Both are in the "buy now" section, not a bidding post, FWIW.