Retrieving Serial Number

[dkees]

I was given an old Smith that had been nickel plated. During the process the serial number on the butt was ground down and then, I believe, filled with plating. The only visible lettering/numbering is on the top of the barrel and it's very tough to read.

Is there a way a layman can retrieve the serial number on this piece?

thanks

 

[Snowbandit]

Guns with serial numbers removed, by anyone for any reason, are generally considered illegal. It could be a serious problem and cost you far more than the gun is worth. I would check with ATF before doing anything.

Having said that, numbers can often be restored with acid etching but that doesn't change the fact it's an altered firearm and probably illegal. Acid etching is easy to do. Acid on a Q-tip and keep wiping over the area until the numbers reappear. Sometimes it works, others not so much. Of course the plating needs to come off in this area first.

When the numbers were originally stamped into the gun the metal in that area was altered under the numbers. Acid will often times restore these alterations enough to make the numbers readable. I have done this on guns recovered from crime scenes when they needed to be traced. It doesn't help the original victim of the stolen gun however. All the ones I worked with were later destroyed by court order.

I suspect it's probably going to be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[canoeguy]

I'd get rid of it.....

A friend of mine got in a beef with his next door neighbor lady, she accused him of master minding a convenience store robbery, in which her son participated in and got busted for. She told the police this guy was a drug dealer and pimp, and led her her poor innocent son down the wrong path...

There was no evidence the police could find to connect him with the robbery, or any drug dealing or pimping. In actuality, he was as active duty Navy man with over 18 years service. So, the cops did a "Knock and Talk", went to his house and asked if they could look around. He let them in and "Lo and Behold" what was in his glass front gun cabinet? A revolver with the serial number removed! And, a .22 rifle with a silencer he had picked up while overseas, silencer didn't work, but that didn't matter. They arrested him, put him in jail, he didn't make bail, spent 45 days in jail till his trial came up. Judge found him guilty and sentenced him to time served, but it was a felony conviction, which not only lost him his gun rights, but he had to jump through hoops to stay in the Navy and retire. Ultimately, he was retained in the Navy but lost his security clearance, so he had lame jobs until he retired.

So, lessons learned:

Avoid firearms with obliterated or altered serial numbers like the plague, and don't let the police look through your stuff unless they have a warrant.....

 

[dant]

to answer your question as to a "layman" retrieving the number?? No....if its a very old model, at times there are numbers on the bottom rear of the barrel, as well as on the rear of the cylinder, BUT those are "parts", NOT the receiver (frame) and thats the number that counts,sadly we see this happen all to often and as said above save yourself a LOT of potential grief, you can salvage (remove) all the parts and destroy the frame...the parts are all of some intrinsic value to "someone", but the altered serial number makes the gun frame "contraband"..............

 

[Alk8944]

I was given an old Smith that had been nickel plated. During the process the serial number on the butt was ground down and then, I believe, filled with plating. The only visible lettering/numbering is on the top of the barrel and it's very tough to read.

Is there a way a layman can retrieve the serial number on this piece?

thanks

Depending on the period of manufacture the serial number on a S&W will be found on the butt, bottom barrel flat, back of cylinder, back of extractor (toward cylinder) and the back face of the yoke facing the cylinder or some combination of these. Certainly some of these 5 numbers survived.

FWIW, Nickel plating is only a few microns (millionths of an inch) thick. It won't conceal a minor scratch on the base metal, let alone a number stamped several thousandths of an inch deep.

 

[dkees]

Thanks for all the info. This gun, a lemon squeezer, was purchased by my grandfather in the 1920s. Although a farmer he carried it during trips to the stockyards selling hogs. He decided to give it to my father but wanted to fix it up first, thus the nickel plating. It's chambered for .38 S&Ws and I have fired it numerous times. It's tighter than a new boot and still has the original grips.

I did not notice the lack of numbers until a few years ago. It was just "grandpa's gun" when my father gave it to me.

I will contact the BATF and see what they say. I realize a gun with no numbers is a serious violation but am going to do all I can to keep from destroying this part of my family.

 

[cowart]

purchased by my grandfather in the 1920s... I realize a gun with no numbers is a serious violation but am going to do all I can to keep from destroying this part of my family.

Section D of ATF form 4473 specifically states that serial numbers are not required on firearms made before 1968.

 

[2152hq]

Removing, altering, obliterating the existing ser# placed on a firearm by the orig mfg'r (or possession of such firearm) is a felony and has been since 1938. (FFA '38)

Two classes of firearms were not required to have ser#'s prior to GCA'68. The '68 law added those and from there forward, all firearms were required to be ser#'d.
IIRC the 4473 only states that all firearms mfg'rd after '68 should be ser#'d. If the dealer has one that is not, a 'NSN' or other notation indicting no serial number should be listed in the appropriate box on the form. They don't bother with the breakdown of which guns weren't required to be ser#'d prior to GCA68 (22rf long guns and shotguns) and I guess they assume a licensed dealer knows about about the law(s) pertaining to altered ser#s on firearms.

 

[WR Moore]

If you can't find serial #s in some of the locations noted,before you try the acid bath, try an ultrasonic cleaner.

If enough of the number is recovered to figure out what it is, it is lawful to restamp the numbers.

 

[deadin]

If enough of the number is recovered to figure out what it is, it is lawful to restamp the numbers.

I might want to get a reading on this from the BATFE. The serial has been obliterated and therefor the gun is illegal. I know that restamping can be OKed, but I think it's more complicated than just whacking them back on with a stamp set. IIRC only certain people can be authorized to do it.

Added: I think one of the problems is how do you know that the other serials on removable parts are the original ones?

 

[WR Moore]

BATF(E) ruled long ago that if you were performing any operation that might result in the elimination or alteration of the serial number, that a paper record of the number and the availability of stamps to restore it (perhaps elsewhere on the weapon, for example if round butting a S&W revolver) was sufficient to avoid prosecution.

If you can recover the original number, I expect that making it more legible really isn't an issue.

 

[2152hq]

BATF(E) ruled long ago that if you were performing any operation that might result in the elimination or alteration of the serial number, that a paper record of the number and the availability of stamps to restore it (perhaps elsewhere on the weapon, for example if round butting a S&W revolver) was sufficient to avoid prosecution.

If you can recover the original number, I expect that making it more legible really isn't an issue.

I'd like to see that ruling,,sure would make things easier.

On compliance checks, the Agents always pound the point home about not haveing a gun with ser# problems and never altering/removing/etc the ser# on any firearm.

What I and other gunsmiths/engravers have run into is that if you want to move the serial number to another location on the gun(frame), or if any operation you're doing will remove any part of the ser# so that it will require remarking,,prior BATF approval is required before the operation is done.

They just do not want you to touch that mfg'r applied ser#.

Bowen used to put lanyard swivels into the butt of S&W revolvers and move the serial # to the side as the factory did. He went through the proper steps to get approval, etc.
More recently that approval has been denied and he no longer does that mod.

Another is the lightweight SAA he builds with weight reducing cuts to the forward sides of the frame. No problem on a Colt,,but on a Ruger, the ser# is stamped on the right hand side.
He won't do those cuts to the Rugers because of the problem getting approval to move the ser# to another location on the frame.

I applied for permission to move a # on a commercial P38 being engraved. Denied.
It was even put in doubt wether I could gold inlay an existing ser# on a gun. That was during a compliance check many years ago. I had to wait for permission to procede or have the shotgun confiscated!
You never know how an Agent will react to what they see in front of them.

I've seen plenty of guns where a 'smith simply restamped the old # in a new location and all seems to be well with the world.
We see it all the time.
But there has been a procedure in place to do it properly and legally. The problem was/is the cumbersome procedure and no guarentee that your request will be granted.

If there is a ruling more recent makeing the procedure easier and with no paperwork, permission request, ect., I'm all for it.