Revolver Action Job Question

[armorer951]

I was there a year later, November 1980. Very impressed with John's knowledge and teaching methods. Both he and Don (Vivenzio) were very patient, and always tried to answer my incessant questions.

 

[Semper Fi 57]

The one piece of advice I haven't heard form the gallery is for the OP to contact S&W to see about 1) returning the weapon for correction & 2) ask them if he can attend one of their armorer schools. It appears to me that he is about to do more damage that he is trying to fix. Hopefully this won't be the case.


Jim

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

What? No Smith & Wesson rebound slide spring tool. Probably the most important tool if you work on Smith & Wessons. Brownells #080-666-000AQ

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

Thanks Semper Fi 57, I pretty much advised on page 1 what you just said. I didn't include the info on the Armorer class which I think that you need to be a LEO to attend. Not that I want to be an I told you so guy, but finally a voice of reason has emerged, I Totally agree, especially when your dealing with a post 97 revolver with MIM parts.

 

[dieselbeef]

man that is one of the worst looking stars ive seen in quite some time...

 

[Toyman]

I made my own rebound spring tool out of a thin bladed Grace screw driver.
The tools you mentioned were not available when I went through.

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

That is a really nice set of S&W armorers tools. I have an old pistolsmithing book by George Nonte, dated back in 74 and he talks about making his own rebound spring tool and other tools. I know that alot of the old timer smiths made most of their own tools. This is an art that's probably being lost. My hats off to you sir, any smith that could make as good or better tools than the ones made commercially is extremely good at their craft and saved a ton of money.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

What? No Smith & Wesson rebound slide spring tool. Probably the most important tool if you work on Smith & Wessons. Brownells #080-666-000AQ

I have a punch that works perfectly.... I spent too much to be buying tools I don't really need.

The one piece of advice I haven't heard form the gallery is for the OP to contact S&W to see about 1) returning the weapon for correction & 2) ask them if he can attend one of their armorer schools. It appears to me that he is about to do more damage that he is trying to fix. Hopefully this won't be the case.


Jim

Thanks Jim. However, I will happily (unlikely) ruin a a part in the name of learning before I send it in. This is fun for me.

man that is one of the worst looking stars ive seen in quite some time...

Are you referring to the burrs that were there before I cleaned them up? Or, the clean up job I did? I hope it's the prior. Please say it's the prior. lol....

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Parts arrived from Brownell's and I got a chance to check the yoke alignment and chamber alignment. Both checked out fine.

I reamed the inside of the yoke barrel as well.

There is only one thing left to do and that is shave, or square up, the yoke barrel face.

The cylinder end shake is .001. Since everything is verified true and aligned, and I get varying pull weights depending on cylinder location, my guess is there are high spots on the yoke barrel face vs. the yoke barrel being too long.

Would you agree with what I've said to this point?

My plan of attack is to dykem the yoke barrel face and install the cylinder on the yoke. Spin the cylinder with a little pressure on the yoke face to find out where the high spots are. Then stone the high spots.

If the dykem wears off evenly then it will be obvious the yoke barrel is a tad too long, and I will need to proceed accordingly.

I don't have the yoke face reamer and Brownells is slower than snails with their order processing so I'm open to suggestions for substituting the yoke face reamer.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I'm probably missing something here. You have a problem (?) of a small difference in trigger pull from one chamber to another, and you are concentrating on facing this and reaming that without having attacked the ratchet? I admit, at first glance the former actions may appear less drastic, but you seem to be telling us that they are definitely NOT less expensive to tool up for. Meanwhile, can't find $5-10 for a small container of RIG +P Stainless Steel Lube. I'm sure that it is not the only super-lube out there, but there are also a lot of lubes that folks think are super that aren't.

No guarantees that the +P is a solution, but it SURELY won't be if you don't try it. Cheaper than ONE FILE.

If you absolutely must solve the problem while possibly using inferior lube, is it not obvious that the ratchet is where it will get solved?

P.S. Of course, I am viewing this from the POV of solving the problem. If you are looking to acquire tools and skills and regard this revolver as more or less the playground that you feel like playing on at the moment, there's certainly nothing wrong with that, and you shouldn't take anything in my post as opposing that. Have fun!

 

[armorer951]

Along with your other checks, you might also take a look at the interior of the yoke, just in front of the yoke barrel. This 1/4" opening that the extractor rod passes through often harbors burrs, or is very tight.

If you don't have a reamer, a new 1/4" drill bit rotated by hand will confirm that it is free from obstructions or burrs. You may see a corresponding shiny "ring" on your extractor rod if it is rubbing while rotating inside this opening.

While .001" of gage is restrictive (end shake), I doubt that issues with the yoke could cause enough restriction on proper rotation to affect the SA trigger pull to the degree you describe.

I would agree with the consensus that one or more of the ratchets may be "long", not cut sufficiently, or cut improperly. Have you tried substituting a slightly narrower hand than the one in the gun? This might not solve the issue, but could indicate that one or more of the ratchets are to blame, without further damage, or removal of material.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

How can it be the ratchet when I can place another yoke in the gun, get a cylinder end shake measurement of.... .002 and the problem is solved?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

How can it be the ratchet when I can place another yoke in the gun, get a cylinder end shake measurement of.... .002 and the problem is solved?

From my limited knowledge, I think you have a point. I'd still try the RIG next.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Along with your other checks, you might also take a look at the interior of the yoke, just in front of the yoke barrel. This 1/4" opening that the extractor rod passes through often harbors burrs, or is very tight.

If you don't have a reamer, a new 1/4" drill bit rotated by hand will confirm that it is free from obstructions or burrs. You may see a corresponding shiny "ring" on your extractor rod if it is rubbing while rotating inside this opening.

While .001" of gage is restrictive (end shake), I doubt that issues with the yoke could cause enough restriction on proper rotation to affect the SA trigger pull to the degree you describe.

I would agree with the consensus that one or more of the ratchets may be "long", not cut sufficiently, or cut improperly. Have you tried substituting a slightly narrower hand than the one in the gun? This might not solve the issue, but could indicate that one or more of the ratchets are to blame, without further damage, or removal of material.

Armorer - I am talking about DA trigger pull.

Thank you for mentioning the 1/4" bit and just in front of the yoke barrel point of inspection. Will do.

I ask again - how can it be the ratchets the when a replacement yoke, resulting in .002 cylinder end shake, solves the problem?

The problem seems to be the face of the ratchets hitting the recoil plate ever so slightly.

In the shop manual it does in fact state that the solution for stiff carry up on 1-3 cylinders is trimming the ratchets however it seems the same could be done (in this case because I have the tight tolerance that allows it) by simply addressing the yoke barrel face.

Edit- trimming the ratchets and addressing the yoke barrel face has no relation (in this case) as to what I think the problem is.

I am going to finish reading the manual now, but trimming the ratchets as you guys suggest has nothing to do with the ratchet faces rubbing the recoil plate.

Edit again - after a brief thought I don't see how trimming the ratchets would solve this problem at all if the problem is in fact an un-even yoke barrel face and a tight cylinder end shake tolerance. Please do explain or give me enough info to look it up in the manual.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

From my limited knowledge, I think you have a point. I'd still try the RIG next.

RIG is not a proper mechanical fix, even though it may fix the problem. It's a band-aid of sorts.

While I do appreciate the suggestion I prefer to solve this problem the way a professional gunsmith would solve it.

I can put stop leak in my radiator and that stuff works. But the radiator is still broken.

 

[tomcatt51]

The problem seems to be the face of the ratchets hitting the recoil plate ever so slightly.

Then you use some dykem or a sharpie and see what's dragging and fix it...

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Because the yoke is different and will be slightly different dimensionally. If there's slightly more yoke/bore clearance the cylinder can move enough in relation to the hand window to let the hand slide by the ratchet without dragging.

Yokes are "select fit". That's why they're not sold as a replacement part. They basically have a box of yokes and they try them in the frame and the first one that fits the frame acceptably gets used.

How long you gonna keep looking in the kitchen for your quarter?

Until I can wrap my brain around the information that is being provided.

Why is the ratchet fix the correct way and squaring up the yoke barrel face is the incorrect way?

Perhaps they grabbed a yoke was just slightly out of spec and it slipped by. God knows they have QC issues.

Whereas the hand/ejector fit is pretty streamlined from what I can tell.

There must be some test to determine whether or not the hand/ratchet is in or out of spec.

From what I was told here over and over, from what I've read and watched in my new educational materials, I am having a hard time understanding why I'd mess with the hand and ratchet when I could possibly square up the yoke face. Especially without any determination the hand/ratchets are out of spec.

At this point I want to understand.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

RIG is not a proper mechanical fix, even though it may fix the problem. It's a band-aid of sorts.

While I do appreciate the suggestion I prefer to solve this problem the way a professional gunsmith would solve it.

I can put stop leak in my radiator and that stuff works. But the radiator is still broken.

I do understand what you are saying, but I notice that the way a professional gunsmith "fixed" my 25 didn't work, yet a great grease did fix it, permanently. You are trying very hard to true up the relationship between your recoil plate (a part of the frame!) and your ratchet. Maybe I misunderstand, but I think that you don't know whether the recoil plate is off, or the yoke is off, or some of the ratchet faces are off. Even when you think you have "fixed" the gun, if you ever do, you may STILL not know what was wrong, or what other looseness you may have introduced to OTHER parts of the mechanism, like, just for a frinstance, the lockup or distance from the recoil plate of the chambers that WERE NOT displaying a "problem." Don't forget, this is a MINOR friction problem - one pound of DA pull variation over six chambers. A PROFESSIONAL gunsmith, one who does this for a living, would jump at the chance to get the gun out the door to a satisfied customer if he could do this with one relube using $.017 worth of lube.

However, if you would prefer to learn what is rubbing, have at it. Just be careful, and don't lose the frame doing it (probably not that likely, anyway).

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Here's how I see it - I can throw a yoke in the gun as the only change and solve the problem while keeping everything well within spec. To me this is no different than a S&W employee simply picking a yoke that's a better fit for my gun and it's parts.

Two very experienced people are telling me no, it's the ratchets. Ok, I have no problem with that. But I want to know how to determine it is in fact the ratchets AND that going after the ratchets is the only 'right' way to solve this problem.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Where do I get variable thickness hands? Do I have to buy a standard and shave it down, and an oversize for the thicker one?

If I square up the yoke face and it solves the problem, I assume this is still a valid test?

Just making my way to page 97-99 in the shop manual now!

 

[tomcatt51]

Hand thickness is pot luck. "Std" thickness hands seem to vary from .092" to .095".

Yes, it's still a valid test. Have another L frame you can "steal" the hand from to try?

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Great.

Yes, I have other L frames.

I just read the shop manuals section on long ratchets. I get what would cause the heavier trigger pull/slow return, but I am completely confused as to how the same cylinder and hand would work with a bit more cylinder end shake (different yoke) but still be the primary issue.

The issue of the long ratchets causing the heavier trigger pull, is an issue of the hand binding on the right hand side of the window.

The two seem to be completely separate issues. What the heck am I missing here?

 

[Pdxrealtor]

I know I am a bit late to this party, but the symptoms you are describing are exactly those which I get with a bent extractor rod.

The tolerance is that it must not be out of round (runout) exceeding .002 inches. I cannot perceive that small amount with my old, tired eyes without help, so I use the Power Custom Fixture to put the cylinder with attached extractor rod into the fixture, then spin the cylinder and observe the precision dial indicator to see if and where the runout is excessive, then bend it back into place. I can actually observe the excessive runout, but only if I place the extractor rod over a thin-lined piece of paper, line it up precisely, then spin the cylinder. Without the line for a reference point, I just cannot perceive runout of .002 inches.

My suggestion: reconfirm that the extractor rod is not bent.

appreciate the input

The same cylinder, extractor rod, hand and ratchets all work fine with a different yoke that puts cylinder end shake gaps just .001 looser than the guns original yoke.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

This is a 586 L comp revolver made in January 2015. I bought it used. There was obvious signs of tampering when I got it. But, how in the heck does the yoke end play get to .008?

That's the problem. Confirmed with trigger pull gauges both manual and digital Lyman. If I leave the .008 feeler gauge in there during the pulls I get +/- 3 ounces on the Lyman digital.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

OK. I see why you want to really fix it. I'll stop the grease comments.

 

[armorer951]

While you're at it check and shim (if required) the yoke endshake also. Powers also has shims for the yoke. You check yoke endshake with the yoke sideplate screw removed.

Questions concerning checking for yoke end play after removing the yoke screw...... isn't the spring loaded yoke screw designed to mitigate the end play problem in the yoke stem? If the yoke is shimmed forward, how would you then resolve the resulting reduction in the B/C gap.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Curious to hear the answer as well.

While shimming the yoke forward solves the problem I'm wondering if can accomplish the same thing by continuing to remove material from the yoke face.

When the yoke is not shimmed forward it positions the yoke back far enough that closing the cylinder removes all play in the cylinder on the yoke. Pushing the yoke forward while the cylinder is closed is not hard, but for lack of a better word it's not 'rattle' loose. It does take a bit of effort to push forward.

Adding dykem to the cylinder bearing shows that is where the friction occurs. It also lines up with the cylinders that show more resistance, and last it matches with wear marks on the frame.

The manual does mention shimming the yoke if you are dealing with the new style yoke retaining system, but I could not find where it describes how to check for yoke end play. Screw in or screw out.

When the cylinder is closed the back recoil plate pushes against the cylinder bearing and the cylinder runs out of room to move forward relieving the pressure on the cylinder bearing due to the yoke barrel being too long, .

Proper way to solve it?

1) I have room on the front of the yoke to shave more off the end of the yoke barrel allowing the cylinder to move forward?

2) Shim the yoke?

3) stone the cylinder bearing? I don't think so. But, it should work.

1 and 2 accomplishes the same thing with different methods.

Suggestions?

I keep going back to shimming the yoke because my other late model L frames don't have the movement in the yoke like this one.

I did try putting a different yoke retaining screw in with no change.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

The shop manual really should say something about the fact the yoke will slide forward while pushing on the cylinder to check cylinder end play. It should also discuss proper methods for testing the yoke play on the newer yokes.

The solution was simple once I quit thinking so hard (I actually just got sidetracked by Tomcatts suggestion to check the yoke end play).

The yoke barrel face had to be shaved. Plain and simple. Problem solved. I took off about .001 to .0015.

I'm very curious to hear how one determines if the yoke has end play that NEEDS to be corrected with shims (newer yokes of course). The cylinder retaining screw, as Armorer mentioned, mitigates the yoke end shake. You can check it all day without the screw and sure it will move in and out. But with the screw in, it doesn't move in and out unless you push forward with some effort.

Again, the shop manual mentions nothing about this.

So to sum it up for the next guy who may not have extra L frames laying around. Everything pointed to a ratchet and hand problem, even the troubleshooting section in the manual. 2-3 cylinders showed a higher resistance during trigger pulls.

The shop manual, while it talks a lot about fixing excessive end shake, did not mention anything at all about the possibility the yoke barrel face could be too long allowing such little end shake that a slight high portion of the cylinder bearing (or recoil plate) may cause a problem. This is easy to verify by looking at the recoil plate, or putting dykem on the cylinder bearing and going for a 'spin'.

In my case I have an obvious high spot in that location, but did not have the clearance (too little end shake).

Another clue would be the cylinder does not budge at all with light pressure front to back (I mean it's solid) when it's in the closed position.

I learned a lot on this one.

Looking forward to final input from armorer, tomcatt, and others. Thanks everyone who contributed.

 

[regalsc]

This long involved & expensive? problem & fix is why if I have a problem with a revolver it goes back to S&W then comes back in 2 weeks fixed for free.

 

[BUFF]

I believe that the OP was doing this because he wanted to learn and was enjoying the process, not to save time, money or aggravation.